Madressah reforms
With reference to article titled ‘failure of madressah reform and its costs‘ written by Kamal Siddiqi (9 July 07) [printed in The News, Lahore)
The article is one of the more balanced approaches towards this highly important issue as both sides were given due importance and criticized in a logical and practical manner.
In addition to what Mr Siddiqi has said, one important aspect that needs to be understood is that the students from these very madressahs are the ones who end up giving away sermons at almost each and every mosque all around Pakistan. This way, not only religious knowledge but varying opinions get to spread across all the stratas of the society. Checking what is being taught becomes very necessary but at the same time, this ‘regulation’ becomes understandably dangerous for Islam, as pointed out in the article.
It is a pity that most of our middle class never will send their children to madressahs for some very valid and good reasons; the core basics of education as opposed to schooling are normally absent from these religious schools
I think problem lies in the core education system. We should never have allowed a separation of Madrassahs from our local government schools. Everyone should really be provided the same basic education, including the religious education, as part of one standardized curriculum.
The madrassahs were really schools in the by-gone era, where children received their basic education. However, the fact that we created a separate segregated system was the problem. This “segregation” of rich and poor continues now in the form of “Urdu” and “English” mediums. And now the problem is so complex and so monsterous that we are unable to tackle it effectively.
The fundamental problems were shortage of trained teachers and schools to teach the children of the lowest segment of our society. Instead of taking necessary steps to provide them with free quality comprehensive education, the madrassah system was born out of collective social neglect to fill a necessary gap.
However, the madrassah system was never equipped to fill this gap between haves and have-nots.
In fact the present madrassah system only furthers the oppression of the poor in our society. As it does not provide the young with any modern tools to survive or elevate themselves within the larger society.
Now it has become difficult to even raise the debate that we should merge the madrassah system into overall system of education, and provide all kids with a powerful grounding in religious and modern education, so that they are able to become great citizens. Quran is a great book and every one should study it to become a great human being. But there is a great amount of knowledge and information that has to do with agriculture, construction, electronics, philosophy, biology, chemistry, arithmetics, and critical inquiry, which has to be received in order to effectively thrive in this world. This is also very necessary, because it only allows us to gain deeper understanding and better appreciation of Allah’s (SWT) all Creation.
If we review the Catholic Church as an example. They opened convents throughout the 3rd World as part of their proselytization (“tablighi”) program. The Order of Sacred Heart, where priests and nuns dedicate their entire lives in the service of Church for the purposes of providing free education to poor children. These convents are known throughout the world for providing the excellent education.
If we review the history of the institution of Jaanisari in the Turkish Empire, we would learn that it was the most effective system of education of war orphans by any State in the history. These were orphans, mostly non-Muslim kids, who were afforded the best possible education money could by in schools run through the patronage of the Sultan himself. These kids were, then based upon their innate talents, selected for service to the Sultan in either the Military or Bureaucracy. The life of these Jaanisaris was considered so great, that often Muslim parents would leave their infants at the doors to be picked up the institution, knowing that one day their son would end up in a prized position within the State.
In both these cases there was no compromise on the quality of the education imparted. This is where they differ from the present day madrassah system.
Today our society is only paying a very real price for shunning their collective responsibility in terms of providing quality education to our most impoverished.
There are no two ways of looking at this problem.
Welcome here Exciton! :) ~ A long awaited one.
That was extreme dajjal drama took several innocent kids life that Islamabad dajjal drama directed by and prepared by anti Islamic forces to tell or make thinking for all Islamic peoples don’t follow this religion Islam is a extremist religion against humanity both main characters will happy and safe under by government of Pakistan.
@Exciton: Valid point, very comprehensive explanation. In fact, the two examples you gave, of the convents & janasaris, should be seriously considered and studied by Ulema of our society and all ‘madressahs’ should be merged with a single National School System. The NSS should impart religious as well as general education and separate classes should be offered for extra ‘Hifz-e-Quran’ lessons which later can be termed as diplomas.
It is not madrassa alone, islam itself needs to be totally revised with all violent verses in it purged.
Read this: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070710/ap_on_re_as/britain_terrorism
This indian muslim is an educated man, that too, high enuf to be writing code for aviation industry (take that pakis, we indians write aviation software), yet he feels that it is OK to ram his Jeep at the airport. All for what. What did UK did to him.
The problem with islam is that it divides the world into us vs them. Who are muslims to call others as kaafirs. Why don’t muslims question stupidities in Quran like “all non muslims will end up in hellfire, or fight unbelievers until they are subdued”.
If after this incident, IT companies in India stop hiring muslims, they have no one else to blame except themselves or the junk of a book called quran.
Here is a pakistani I know who says in his blog that we are simple unfortunate to be born as muslims.
http://geocities.com/fpmuhammad/
Very brave man. I hope his identity is not revealed, otherwise he will be killed.
Another Paki living in Canada has his blog dedicated to exposing the cult of islam.
http://isaacschrodinger.typepad.com/
very nice, Mr. Indian.
Only two links? There are tons and tons more that show how the cult of Islam is spreading like the wildest of fires… billions are affected by it and their minds are washed thoroughly and they are turned into slaves.
I just try to be slave numero uno.
Perhaps you have a blog of your own?
EXCITON: Janissaries were not orphans – Those boys were forcibly snatched from Slavic and Greek parents as a form of human taxation (“devishirmeh”). I agree Janissaries were given best schooling to train them as government official and soldiers. However, that system was abolished in 19th century and has no place in the modern world. We need to look around in the present day world for examples to follow to help us establish a viable and relevant education system, not in the era bygone.
With current curriculum a madrassa graduate can only earn his livelihood by become a maulvi of a mosque and we all know we do not have enough mosque to cater for thousands of graduates churned out by the factories of ignorance. Unless, madrassas incorporate vocations trainings (electrician, plumber, mechanic, carpenter, fitter, machinist, machine operator, dairy farmer, etc), the graduates will have no choice but to end up a mullah, frustrated and jealous of the success of his counterparts with secular education, and intolerant due to his narrow education. In order to bring the madrassa to mainstream, they need to teach the subjects of normal schools in madrassa with additional stress on theology as an optional subject.
MR. INDIAN: I agree with you that we have to conduct a critical self-analysis to see if the Islam as practiced by many is relevant to this age. We will have to review the obscurantist interpretations of various aspects Islam to imbibe religious practies with messages of peace, tolerance and rationality.
JayJay,
A critical self-analysis is impossible in Islam due to an untenable view held by majority (here majority means 98%) that Quran is verbatim word of Allah as told to Mohd and is immutable forever. If you start with that assumption, then nothing is possible. Ask anyone working in software whether they just keep modifiying an existing code forever or reach a point where they realize that is better to junk and start from clean slate.
Islam does not allow critical thinking. Has any muslim ever thought the injustice belted out to nonmuslims in quran with words like “all non muslims will go to hell as hellfire awaits them”. or ‘seek no freindship with jews and christians” and many.
Quran is not the word of GOD. No GOD will ever be so cruel to others and neither would he divide the world into us vs them. Quran is a word of a man called Mohd who was using it for his political agenda. It is not a bad book if you take into account that it was written in 7th century. However it is a rotten book if someone thinks it will fit in 21st century.
Let us view it differently. Society changes over a period of time and our definition of moral right or wrong also. 200 yrs ago USA had slavery. If anyone had asked a righteous american of that time whether slavery was OK, his reaction would been yes. Now today we can not emulate him because times have changed. Same is true with muslims trying to emulate Mohd and his life. Sharia law has no place in today’s works. It is barbaric.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,288793,00.html
How horrible to stone someone to debt just because you don’t agree with his sex-life. This is pisslam to you.
Momekh: Unintentionall you have blurted out the truth. Majority of muslims (here majority means 98%) are automated bots who just perform what has been told to them. The link I provided above is a good example.
Mr. Indian, I am requesting you to please show respect to people of other religions and not to use derogatory terms for scriptures and concepts and personalities that they hold sacred. You have the right to disagree but within social norms of disapproval…
You repeated intolerance towards viewpoints different than yours will only lead to your comments continually being removed from this blog. This may eventually lead to your IP being banned. Your discretion is advised.
If I, after believing in a God that you claim do not exist and believing in a Book that you say can not be used today, if I can show you courtesy and not use foul language, it is only expected from you to at least try to do the same.
Consider this a request in the nicest of ways, I have no other way of putting forth such a thing…
And by the way, my blurting of the truth was not unintentional at all, it was in fact the point that I was making. :)
You are right Momekh, there is a reason Islam is he fastest growing religion in the world. You may please ignore the small (rather tiny) mind of ‘Monsieur Indian’ as he couldn’t grasp the easy meaning of your stance.
Opee,
That ‘islam-is-the-fastest-growing-religion-in-the-world’ is not something to be proud of like say ‘fastest-growing-economy-in-the-world’, given that 90% of islam’s growth comes from birth of new muslims born to muslim parents. It is not as if people are leaving their religion in droves to convert to this wonderful religion.
Also in Europe and countries like Canada, immigrants are taken into account when ‘fastest’ growing religion is defined.
Islam never takes into account how many leave islam as leaving islam is not an option in islam. Just to give an example, in Africa 1.67 million muslims convert to christianity every year. This was reported in AlJazeera. Also in UK alone it is estimated every year between 15,000 to 25,000 leave islam. This is active leaving, not taking into account those who cease to be a muslim and don’t care about it anymore – without making it public. Do you count them as muslims.
Also I would like you to do some reading about some dubious claims about islam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastest_Growing_Religion
Why is that muslims take pride in such stats? How does quantity replace quality for them? Who do you have to trott the same lie all the time again. For all the fastest religion in UK, muslims are still less than 3% of UK population.
Note: The previous Message by M was by me.
One shameful fact not told by muslims is that islam attracts mostly blacks of US and that from criminal background. Islam is the dominant religion of conversion in jails by blacks. Once they are out of jail, they are back to their old ways and leave islam. Somehow pro islamic organization never mention that blacks are the majority of conversions in US.
There is nothing wrong in blacks converting to islam. But when those blacks have criminal background and they go back to their old ways, once out of jail, it becomes shameful.
Momekh,
This is your blog and I have to abide by your request. Sorry.
Now can I ask you and others to answer my question about Quran.
What was your question again? :) Please post one by one so that you may get attention. We don’t want you to feel ignored.
Thanks very much!
Opee, Do you have anything to say worthwhile or do you think you are funny? FYI the world today laughs at muslims and not with muslims.
According to the claims on the link you have provided. I again proclaim that you have studied but not grasp the article properly. You should stay focussed to get the whole jist of it rather than jumping from one conclusion to the other searching on google for the truth and having no mind set of own whatsoever. So, according to the link you have provided. i.e. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastest_Growing_Religion
It clearly states and I quote:
the World Christian Database as of 2007 estimated the six fastest growing religions of the world to be Islam (1.84%), the Bahá’í Faith (1.7%), Sikhism (1.62%), Jainism (1.57%), Hinduism (1.52%), and Christianity (1.32%)
The statistics are Latest and independant. The source is also provided for the surveys. So you yourself accpet Islam as the fastest-growing-religion-in-the-world. Now what was your question again?
>>
@MrConfusedIndy: Now I thought you were going to ask some question about Quran but you ended up asking some other out of contextual question about Me? See, your focus is out. Better work on it!
Opee, Do you have anything to say worthwhile or do you think you are funny?
Of course, you’re not the only one :)
Mera bhi dil hai. Though I cannot be as good as you are. Not even close – I know! :)
My questions are already there few messages above (hint: reply to JJ). of course it requires some comprehension skills to understand, not to mention the ability for honest introspection about islam. Otherwise for me it is the equivalent of “bhains ke aage been bajana”.
I actually expect JJ to reply to those points.
You are free to enjoy living in your chimerical world of Jannat, 72 houris. I don’t want to be a spoilsport. Enjoy the dream.
XOXOX
I actually expect JJ to reply to those points.
XOXOX
Aww, I’m so sorry, do you feel ignored? *sniff* :)
I would have felt ignored if I had higher expectations of participation re: my questions. As I told earlier, 98% of muslims are automated bots. So the only response by JJ represents the other 2% :-)
ps: can we stop this stupid tete-e-tete. getting boring now.
:) — Cheers!
Mr. Indian: I am a muslim.
what i can gather from your messages is that your understanding of islam and Quran has gone horribly wrong. But then, many muslims themselves have poor or completely wrong understanding of Islam. So i hope God will forgive you for that. My request to you is to have an open mind and answer “my” question below:
Quran does not, i repeat, does not ask muslims to fight against non muslims. The word Jihad does not mean killing the non believers. Killing an innocent human being, whether muslim or non muslim, is punishable sin in islam and is never allowed, let alone encouraged.
If you disagree, Can you give me the exact verse from Quran to support “your” argument? I can assure you that you wont find any.
Jihad (a highly misunderstood term both by many muslims and non muslims) is NOT war against non believers. Far from it. Jihad is a fight against those who create chaos on earth through oppression, voilence and injustice. Fighting against Hitler’s Army can be called Jihad. Killing innocent civilians or spreading terror is not Jihad. No verse in Quran asks muslims to kill non believers or destroy their property. If you disagree, give me an exact quote from Quran. Again i can assure you that you wont find any such quote.
all i can ask you is to read Quran (the book you refer so much in your talks and have never read yourself). May Allah give you guidance and show you the right path.
Plus: while we are talking about quoting from Quran, let me give you just one quote. The holy book very simply states, “There is no compulsion in religion”.
Now does the above quote not contradict everything you have been talking about on Islam and Quran.
Also remember, Islam does not put you into thousands of restrictions as is popular belief. It is the most moderate and freedom oriented religion on earth. It doesnt restrict thought. It provokes it. Makes you think. Do you know what is the first Kalima of Islam, it starts from the line, “There is no god”, then says, “but Allah”. Do you know why is it so. Because Islam first frees you from all the illogical idols and restrictions created by the man itself, making you realize that you are a free man and a free thinker. Then it tells you not to go overboard with your free thinking and follow a certain guideline brought to you by your creator. What is that guideline now? Simply, be good to your fellow human beings. Dont do injustice. Do your bit to make the world a better place. Pray to no one but Allah. Seek forgiveness. Always be thankful to what you have got……. for more info, read Quran my friend. May Allah be your guide and our saviour.
Faraz,
My messages are being blocked. If the administrator(s) are reading this, please allow this to be posted, otherwise I will take it that you are not sincere about debating and you fear losing the debate.
for violent verses of Islam, kindly refer to this
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm
The wikipedia link was provided to show how dubious are claims of any religion claiming themselves to be fastest. The very first paragraph of that link mentiones this “There are several
different religions claimed to be the “fastest growing religion”. Such claims
vary due to different definitions of “fastest growing”, and whether the claim is
worldwide or regional. There are also many unreliable claims and rumours,
especially for conversion rates, that often spread as urban legends. Hard data
is difficult to come by.
”
christians prove they are the fastest growing religion: http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-fastest-growing.htm
mormones claim the same: http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/ChurchAndMinistry/Evangelism/Mormons_Are_Fastes
t_Growing_Religion.aspx
scientologists join the shouting match
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0486993/
Now Falun gong claims the same.
Mr. Indian: A little bit of research can help a lot :)…
Lets look at the verses quoted in the link you have provided:
1) Sura (2:191) – And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter.
Ever wondered who is “them” in this verse? Answer can be found in the verse right before this one. i.e. Sura (2:190)
“Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Surely! Allah loveth not aggressors.”
Now put the verse quoted in context. Allah is simply telling us that if someone starts hostilities against you, then you must fight back. The first verse clearly forbids muslims from “initiating” any sort of histilities. Let me repeat, “… but begin not hostilities. Surely! Allah loveth not aggressors.”
Same is the case with next 2 verses quoted from the same Surah in the link you provided. They are simply asking people to fight if they are being oppressed or are subject to hostilities. Its our nature to defend ourselves. And you are specifically forbidden to initiate hostilities.
As i said before, fighting against Hitler’s army can fit the above profile.
Next, your link moves to the third Surah:
Sura (3:56) – As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.
Again read it in context. Start from a few verses earlier. Here the story being told is that of Jesus Christ, and how some people plotted and planned against the prophet of Allah and rejected faith. We all have heard this story (and seen movies / documentaries on it). The people who did such a major injustice to Jesus, shouldn’t they receive apprpriate justice from Allah for their deeds?
Do you get the picture? There is no quote which talks about “initiating” hostilities against non muslims. Far from it. The very first verse in your link comes right after “…but begin not hostilities. Surely! Allah loveth not aggressors”.
Yes, many muslims and non muslims have not done this little bit of research and have taken things out of context. Thats why so many things are misunderstood. Islam (if you read entire Quran) is a religion of peace. It seeks harmony among people. it frees you from negative thinking.
And about non muslims in the eyes of islam: do you know that as a muslim, i am allowed (by islam) to marry a christian or a jewish girl. if they were (as you maintain) such hateful people in Islam’s eyes, why would the same religion allow me to marry in their families? surely Quran talks about marriage as an association of love and source of happiness for men and women.
Mr. Indian: I can go on and provide you context and clear meaning of every verse your link talks about. But i would encourage you to do this research on your own. The key here is to understand Quran in context.
As quoted above, if verse 2:190 says “Allah loveth not aggressors”, how can anyone in his right mind claim that the next verse (2:191) is encouraging agression?
May Allah be our guide and saviour.
.. I say Ameen to that. Much appreciated Biradaram Faraz! Good to hear your thoughts. Keep up the good work, but don’t waste your energies on every tom, dick, harry and larry who comes along your way. Place a nice cover-drive for those who are here for Behus-baraye-behus and tanqeed-baraye-tanqeed. You Good luck.
For others:
That kind of unfortunate posts and blogs by a confused person did not deserve a logical response. The original post was based on a different context, but I guess his indignant and poorly articulated response only indicates a rather sad (and hateful) state of mind, no wonder it could not take anything seriously and wants to divert every discussion on the metblog to ‘GoogleSearches’ regardless of the actual topic. I am sure the more educated and enlightened Indian crowd does not subscribe to his type/style of thinking.
At the same time, I completely welcome such responses. Mr. Indian has done a great service to the members of this forum, majority of whom are Pakistanis, by giving them a direct insight into the mind of an average Indian. It is clear that the GOI propaganda over the years has done a wonderful job of poisoning the mind of an average Indian, where they believe that all Pakistanis are terrorists, including the little children. Makes it easy to justify targeting their nukes directly at us!
And it is always good to know what people on the other side are *really* thinking. It just goes to show that all the CBMs are basically a hog-wash, since the work to correct the underlying (hateful) thinking requires a lot more than just bus-trips and empty rhetoric. We always knew and believe that the GOI is doing all this with tongue-in-cheek, only to give an (false) impression of a “kinder, gentler” India to the Western world, whereas the ground realities are entirely different.
The forum and metblog members will also be well reminded that immediately after the Oct 8th earthquake hit, destroying a portion of Muzaffarabad, we saw similar misguided blog-posts from our “loving-neighbors” actually happy over the fact that the “center of terror” was hit so hard killing many, including hundreds of children, as a “punishment from God for their ‘terrorist acts’”. This deprave thought was also editorialized by a few leading Indian newsites, including none other than rediff.com.
We always have a choice in the way we want to respond to such hatred. I for one do not subscribe to the theory of hate-for-hate [as in tit-for-tat], but this guy was an exception. He deserved such responses. But surely, instead we should work at our individual levels and capacities to do good for the sake of our own fellow citizenry. That FARAZ’s is the best response. And remember every little drop in the bucket helps.
Best regards,
Opee
Faraz,
Thanks for your response. Interesting that youn picked up only few verses out of many to prove something. Does that mean that you can not refute the rest.
Anyhow coming back to 2:190, that is your interpretation. In the book “In the Shadow of Quran, by Sayyid Qutub”, this is the interpretation
“But what about the Qur’an’s command to Muslims not to “begin hostilities”? In his monumental, multi-volume commentary on the Qur’an, In the Shade of the Qur’an, Qutb explains Sura 2:190 (“begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors”) not as a command to Muslims to avoid attacking their opponents, but rather as a warning not to attack civilians “who pose no threat to Muslims”: “‘Aggression,’” says Qutb, “implies attacks on non-combatants and peaceful, unarmed civilians who pose no threat to Muslims or to their community as a whole.” He pointedly avoids saying that this verse limits jihad to self-defense. In fact, according to Qutb the very nature of the call to Islam rules out the idea that jihad could only be for self-defense. “Since the objective of the message of Islam is a decisive declaration of man’s freedom, not merely on the philosophical plane but also in the actual conditions of life, it must employ Jihaad. It is immaterial whether the homeland of Islam — in the true Islamic sense, Dar ul-Islam — is in a condition of peace or whether it is threatened by its neighbors.”
Qutb speaks harshly of modernist and moderate Muslims who would recast jihad as a struggle for self-defense. Even while they “talk about Jihaad in Islam and quote Qur’anic verses,” he says, they “do not…understand the nature of the various stages through which this movement develops, or the relationship of the verses revealed at various occasions with each stage.” This leads to further errors: “Thus, when they speak about Jihaad, they speak clumsily and mix up the various stages, distorting the whole concept of Jihaad and deriving from the Qur’anic verses final principles and generalities for which there is no justification. This is because they regard every verse of the Qur’an as if it were the final principle of this religion.”
What does Qutb mean by the stages? In his jihad primer Milestones, Qutb quotes at length from the medieval scholar Ibn Qayyim (1292-1350), who, says Qutb, “has summed up the nature of Islamic Jihaad.” Ibn Qayyim outlines the stages of the Muhammad’s prophetic career: “For thirteen years after the beginning of his Messengership, he called people to God through preaching, without fighting or Jizyah, and was commanded to restrain himself and to practice patience and forbearance. Then he was commanded to migrate, and later permission was given to fight. Then he was commanded to fight those who fought him, and to restrain himself from those who did not make war with him. Later he was commanded to fight the polytheists until God’s religion was fully established.” Qutb summarizes the stages: “Thus, according to the explanation by Imam Ibn Qayyim, the Muslims were first restrained from fighting; then they were permitted to fight; then they were commanded to fight against the aggressors; and finally they were commanded to fight against all the polytheists.”
you might also want to read this
http://www.islamworld.net/jihad.html
Also why don’t quran allow muslim lady to marry jews and christians. Is Allah a male chauvinist.
“there is no compulsion in religion”
shouldn’t that be applied to muslims themselves.
Please tell why leaving islam is punishable by death.
“Make no excuse; you have disbelieved after you had believed. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you because they were criminals” [Quran 9:66]
“Verily, those who disbelieved after their Belief and then went on increasing in their disbelief – never will their repentance be accepted [because they repent only by their tongues and not from their hearts]. And they are those who are astray. Verily, those who disbelieved, and died while they were disbelievers, the (whole) earth full of gold will not be accepted from anyone of them even if they offered it as a ransom. For them is a painful torment and they will have no helpers.”
[Quran 3:90-91]
“O you who believe! Whoever from among you turns backx from his religion, Allah will bring a people whom He will love and they will love Him; humble towards the believers, stern towards the disbelievers, fighting in the Way of Allah, and never afraid of the blame of the blamers. That is the Grace of Allah which He bestows on whom He wills. And Allah is All-Sufficient for His creatures’ needs, All-Knower.” [Quran 5:54]
“O Prophet (Muhammad)! Strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be harsh against them, their abode is Hell, – and worst indeed is that destination. They swear by Allâh that they said nothing (bad), but really they said the word of disbelief, and they disbelieved after accepting Islâm, and they resolved that which they were unable to carry out, and they could not find any cause to do so except that Allâh and His Messenger had enriched them of His Bounty. If then they repent, it will be better for them, but if they turn away, Allâh will punish them with a painful torment in this worldly life and in the Hereafter. And there is none for them on earth as a Walî (supporter, protector) or a helper.” [Quran 9:73-74]
“So remind them (Muhamad), you are only one who reminds. You are not a dictator over them. Save the one who turns away and disbelieves. Then Allâh will punish him with the greatest punishment. [Quran 88:21-24]
”
Today how many islamic countries allow a muslim to leave islam and convert to any religion of his choice. Answer: ZERO. Am I suppose to believe that not one islamic country knows quran correctly. That tells me something is wrong with quran if it can be so easily misinterpreted.
I am not yet started quran sanctioned treatment of non muslims in muslim countries. It is called dhimmitude.Have you heard of Jaziya tax.
more later.
“It is clear that the GOI propaganda over the years has done a wonderful job of poisoning the mind of an average Indian, where they believe that all Pakistanis are terrorists, including the little children. Makes it easy to justify targeting their nukes directly at us!
”
that’s rich given that US has taken serious objection to what is taught in Pakistan schools in the name of history and asked them to tone down the hatred preached against Christians, Jews.
And Mushy, who wants uncle Sam $, agreed to it.
And of course the involvement of Pakis in almost every terrorist act in the world is just an act of divine love and affection.
Opee,
Instead of being obsessed with india, you might want to check as to why many european countries have banned direct flights from Pakistan. US also does not allow direct flight from Pakistan.
US is putting pressure on UK to stop allowing UK citizens of Pakistan origin to travel to US without Visa, which at present all UK citizens can.
My take on this: Hindus like me are poisoning every govt in the world otherwise everyone knows that pakis are the nicest people around.
If you ever come out of pakistan you will know what others think of pakistan and pakis.
Ah, as a dessert you can read this: The air traffic between India and US is growing at around 15% per annum with more and more flights added all the time, quite a few of which direct flights. Same for tourist traffic in India.
Did you check how many goras want to come to Pakistan.
@mr. indian: just for the sake of clarity, are you against muslims or pakistan in particular?
IBLEES,
I hate both the sin and the sinner. Muslims are happy if we non muslims hate the sin but not the sinner.
MR INDIAN: You have raised some valid points. The reforms Europe underwent post-Renaissance, which encompassed the role of religion in, and its relevance, to public and individual life bypassed the Islamic world. An absolute majority of Muslims believes in literal interpretations of the Quran and associated books of traditions, as you rightly pointed out, due to the unquestioning belief in the “revealed” nature of Islam.
Are Muslims ready for compete revamp in their faith at present? The answer is no, with getting into factors which have resulted in creating such conditions. A less controversial and therefore more viable approach, contrary to an outright challenge to the established concepts about the Quran, is reinterpreting the overall messages that originate from the book. A reform has to start from the jettisoning of literalist interpretation of verses which appear to propagate meanings not acceptable to the moral standards of the contemporary world. For instance, if the Quran sanctioned one-half share in parents’ inheritance for a female child, what is stopping us now, 1400 years down, from making it level with those of a male child. The Quran has established the minimum share, not the maximum. There are many more other issues which could be tackled in this way; polygamy, interest based economy, etc, but not all, especially more controversial one.
The Quran — irrespective of one’s belief, or lack of it, in divine origin — focuses on the society, culture, politics and people of the Arabian peninsula. Now that Islam has got hold in almost all corners of the world, this fact in itself, apart from demands of age, warrants reinterpretation of the ideas of Quran to modify them to suit each people. How relevant is the centrality, and sanctity, attached to dates as a food item to the faithful living in the temperate climate, for example? While Islam, conveniently and comfortably, adopted and adapted many of the existing Arabian cultural practices and norms(the Hajj, Kaaba, Arabic as the language of religion, naming conventions, to name a few), these cultural practices have become obligations for the converted people in non-Arab countries (Indonesia, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Iran etc). Now when non-Arab Muslims outnumber Arab Muslims, why it is considered obligatory for a Pakistan Muslims to have an Arab name, follow an Arab way of greeting, conform to Arabian dressing standards and even follow Arabian cultural festivals as opposed to indigenous ones? A Muslim’s faith is a pact between him and his God; why he has to be more Arabian than an Arab to be a good Muslim? Any reform in Islam has to have indigenization aspect to it to bring about conformity of the religious practices with everyday life. It will help remove a much suppressed, but lingering, viewpoint of religious imperialism.
Anyway, it is long debate. The reform has to come from non-Arab countries and must focus on rendering aspects which are perceived misogynist, discriminatory to other religions, intolerant of diversity of views and, of course, promote violence have to go. Any reform needs to target practices as much as the review of scriptural interpretations.
JAYJAY,
excellent. May your tribe grow.
However I am not as hopeful as you. Islam is on its downward spiral. They surived so long by keeping its people in dark. However technology made it impossible to keep muslims in dark. If Islam is so great, why are muslims afraid of criticism. Why do many islamic countries ban or block web sites critical of islam. Why do muslims, who want to leave islam peacefully to any religon of their choice, or even become no religion, have to fear for their life. This tells that islam lacks self confidence and fears exposure.
The oft repeated marketing slogan “islam is the fastest growing religion” has to ben taken with a pinch of salt, because almost entire ‘growth’ is coming from fast breeding by muslims (birth rate in all islamic countries is significantly higher than other countries, specially west). Also Islam does not into account those who leave islam or are muslims for name sake only.
There is a gentleman called Nusrat Rizvi who lives near NY in USA. For the last 10 yrs he has been exposing Islam in the internet and has complete contempt for Islam. Guess what?He is counted as a muslim while claiming ‘fastest growing religion’.
If there are 10 new muslims added today and 8 leave today, the real growth is 2. Per islamists, it is 10. Those 8 don’t exist for them.
Note: This is just an example. Don’t take the figures seriously.
Don’t worry, none of your yap yap is taken seriously here! :) You may please -with all due respect- dream on..
of course they are not taken seriously. Why do you think I said “I am not as hopeful as you”.
ps: and that is why all islamic countries are in doldrums with a total sense of hopelessness. of course we indians are very happy about the pathetic state of Islamic Republic of Pakistan. We have no competition from them in any economic field.
mr. indian, sin is a religious term and its meaning is bound to attached context; so your answer is more what the linguistics define as “blathering”.
just out curiosity, as you seems to be a well aware person especially around islamic influence on world, could i ask you to tell us how many countries (beside south asia, uk and usa) you have visited and how many world languages you speak? Just so everybody knows that you actually have first hand experience of what you are stating.
I have a very limited knowledge of world, only been to four continents and speak only five languages; and based on my experience i never came across any such view of islam or pakistan.
I don’t see any fact, referencing to propaganda websites, no hard facts, only pakistan this, islam that; i actually feel sorry for audience.
… anything else?
Iblees, shh… let him spilt it out all. Some guys need help. He will be done soon!
Iblees,
So all your saying is that banning flights from pakistan, frisking away pakistanis at airports, or turning them away (aproximately 35% of all tourists/visitors to US who are turned back at the airport are from pakistan) are all signs of
welcome and love.
When a MNC wants to open a new R&D office for some innovative technology, they look towards India. When a terrorist act happens in any country, they look towards pakistan. This is not limited to west alone, even fellow muslim countries start suspecting pakis the moment a blast occurs.
check this out:
http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=13702
But hey, all this are worthless. What we should take more seriously is your personal experience in five continents. Also you can speak five languages. Wow. That should make your experience priceless and much above what we see daily on TV or read in newspapers. Geez, you learn something daily.
Here is a friendly country of yours, China, asking you to investigate terrorism done by pious muslim of pakistan in China. The news source is your own newspaper.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_17-1-2004_pg1_2
I am sure chinkies are wrong as we all know pakis are the nicest people around.
Equally wrong is all those letters to the editor by pakis returning from abroad and bitching about the treatment they got.
Mr. Indian:
I quoted from a book (called Quran) the following verse:
“…begin not hostilities. Surely! Allah loveth not aggressors.” and concluded that Quran does not encourage aggression.
You quoted from a book written by one Mr. Sayyid (not called Quran), and concluded somehow that Quran actually encourages aggression.
Do you not see the sheer lack of logic in your argumet. I mean, if you are discussing a certain book, atleast stick to that book while discussing. What others may have written in their own books may have little relevance. Simply put, if anyone says that the words, “Allah loveth not aggressors” actually mean that aggression is encouraged in Islam, then that someone is clearly not thinking straight.
Dont tell me what somebody else wrote and interpretted. Dont tell me what Mr X said in his “letters to the editors” or a certain Mr. Y wrote in his blog. Next thing we know, you will be quoting from graffiti on the walls in downtown timbukto.
Also yesterday i told you that i have only given you the context of the first few verses that your link mentioned. For rest of the verses, i asked you to do the research yourself and find the context and clear meaning by reading more from Quran. Alas, you spent that time reading a couple of hate oriented blogs and letters to the editors in some Pakistani newspapers.
You also mentioned Jaziya Tax imposed by muslim governments. Well first of all, when exactly did a “tax” become a form of punishment? If it is so, then almost every government in the modern world is punishing its citizens by imposing taxes on them. Why impose Jaziya only on non-muslims? Well, because Muslims already are ordered to pay a certain tax called Zakat (which is a fixed percentage of all your savings). Non muslims were never asked by muslim governments to pay Zakat. Hence some governments decided to initiate a different tax for non muslims. Whats the harm in that?
i just hope you can take an objective look at things. The illogical, focus deprived arguments of yours and the senseless statements jumping from one conclusion to the other are nothing but a waste of time.
You need to go out more and meet people sometime.
Of what use is quran if the interpretation is consistently bad by a good number of people. You are smart to take the context, it seems many are not. That’s why today all terrorists are muslims,
though not all muslims are terrorists. Even 1% of muslims can create havoc in the world because 1% is 15 million (assuming 1.5billion muslims). If 19 can do enormous damage on Sep 11, imagine how much can how 15 million can do.
Once CNN showed a program. This TV correspondent asked a 17yr old Iraqi on why he killed shias. That young man told without batting an eyelid “nothing matters. when I will meet allah, the first question he will ask me is how many infidels you killed”. I saw it live and I was shocked how casually he said that. That’s the religion of peace for you. Don’t try to give me your syrupy version of quran. All it proves that you are a very decent person and probably would not kill anyone, but you are not morally righteous enuf to accept the quran is imperfect.
Jaziya is a tax exclusively for non muslims and it was back breaking tax and not 8% like that of zakaat.
here is what glorious quran has to say about imposing jaziya
“The imposition of jizya upon non-Muslims is mandated by the Qur’an Qur’an 9:29:
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold forbidden that which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
”
Some soothing words they are. They first talk about fight non muslims, then it tells about how non muslims should be paid Jaziya with willing submission. Only a morally bankrupt person will equate it with zakat.
If Islam is so perfect and treated all non muslims with the same love and affection, how come zakat is worded so much better than Jaziya, eh?
And no answer about death punishment for apostasy. What happened? feeling too ashamed to answer that, or consulting islamic experts how to justify that.
I missed this gem:
“Hence some governments decided to initiate a different tax for non muslims. Whats the harm in that?
”
Some govt!!! Do you know during the islamic rule in india, only Akbar abolished it. Rest all were collecting. Do you know initially they were busying killing all hindus at will for not converting to islam. But then they realized if all hindus are converted or killed, then who will pay jaziya (significantly more than zakat). hence india along with egypt became the only two muslim ruled countries where conversion was not encouraged beyond a limit.
This is a good site to learn about glorious Jaziya and how it has its roots in Quran
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaziya
And BTW what does Quran talk about slaves.
“The Quran in Sura 4:24 says:
And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands (as prisoners of war) . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 319). (See also Suras 4:3 and 33:50)
”
What sort of GOD is Allah who says it is perfectly OK to have unlimited sex with POW. It does not sound like that of someone who created the whole world and then shows his contempt for many people, in this case POW.
Here is what Allah, the so called creator of world has to say about any non muslims
“And if any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!” -Quran 48:13″
How wonderful. How charming. What a pious man this creator was.
Mr. Faraz, here is a free advice from me. Never defend anything which is not defensible. You will end up looking like a fool. You do seem to be a man of moral values. All you need is to see Quran in true light.
Mr. Indian, here is a free advice from me. Never defend anything which is not defensible. You will end up looking like a fool. You do seem to be a man of moral values. All you need is to see Quran in true light.
MR INDIAN: If you are interested in continuing this debate offline, email me at
potohar.islamabad@gmail.com
mr. indian, it seems your learning disorder are deeper than previously suspected. you weren’t able to answer most of questions, i wonder afraid or ashamed to answer. you’re showing a pathetic state of attack-is-the-best-defense with all your rambling.
on an open and milder note, there’s a lesson to learn here from mr. indian, he’s a classic example of why the indians are hated in western “club scene” and not many western girls want to be them.
here’s a piece of advice, mr i-know-it-all indian, try to go out and get laid. your social isolation and sexual frustration is reflected in all useless words.
so, come on, instead of replying, write something totally different “what the voices tell you to do”, and send another wikipedia link, or tabloid links, you can do it more, and you know you want to, don’t you?
p.s. for your pleasure, i have forwarded this thread to non-asians mostly atheist friends to have insight in classic stereotype indian mentality.
have no one ever heard the term, “don’t feed the troll”?
iblees – so funny, so true.
Look who’s squatting on Waqf land in Delhi
(IANS)
13 July 2007
NEW DELHI — Not many know it, but huge swathes of Waqf land — property of Muslim trusts — have come to be occupied illegally by prominent government and private establishments in Delhi.
Delhi Waqf Board officials say that a leading public school and a five-star hotel in the heart of the city are among as many as 362 prime properties that have come up illegally on the board’s land. Government bodies are major violators.
The issue of squatting on Waqf land in the country has come into sharp focus after a notice last week to Mukesh Ambani from the Maharashtra Waqf Board, restraining him from building on its land his dream mansion at Altamount Road in Mumbai.
Waqf is the Urdu equivalent for the word trust. Over a period most properties owned by Muslims, either left unattended and unwilled or actually left in the custody of some person or body, becomes Waqf property.
Almost the entire area extending from Masjid Moth to Gulmohar Park was once Wakf property. A block of apartments near the Indian Institute of Technology Delhi is built on such land.
“The Delhi Waqf Board has not sold a single property to anybody. But, yes, we have not been able to recover fully even a single property so far,” conceded Intezar Jafri, the inspector of properties at the Delhi Waqf Board.
The entire Western Extension Area (WEA) in Karol Bagh, the Harijan Basti on Old Rohtak Road, the Takia Piao in Timarpur and prime land in Mehrauli were all once owned by Wakf and are now under the control of various quarters.
Most Waqf land is in fact under the occupation of government bodies, according to Jafri.
The Land and Development Office (L&DO) of the Delhi government occupies 108 Waqf properties and Delhi Development Authority (DDA) 138 properties. Another 53 are listed against the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) and 20 against Indian Railways.
The property left unclaimed by Muslims who went to Pakistan after India’s partition went to the Custodian of Properties. This body has long ceased to exist but the property under its control — which should have either gone to the Waqf or to another body specially created for this purpose – has not been accounted for, said Jafri.
The Waqf Board strangely mentions 15 properties still under its control.
The ministry of defence, Delhi Transport Corp (DTC), Municipal Corporation of Delhi (MCD), New Delhi Municipal Committee (NDMC) and Delhi Police are all sitting illegally on Wakf property.
“The entire length of land from the Hazrat Nizamuddin shrine to Aliganj, near Jor Bagh opposite Safdarjung Airport, was a graveyard for Muslims — one of the biggest graveyards in northern India,” says Akhlaqur Rehman, the oldest employee of the Delhi Wakf Board.
“This means that the CGO complex, all the Lodhi Colony private and government constructions, all of it was part of this graveyard.”
Before partition there were three committees looking after all Wakf properties in Delhi. “These were the Anjumane Moidul Islam, Zeenatul Masajid committee and the Jama Masjid committee,” said Rehman. These committees were under the supervision of the deputy commissioner of Delhi. Therefore, in the land records, the deputy commissioner of Delhi was mentioned as the owner of all these properties. “The survey of 1908 and 1909 and a subsequent survey in 1919, whose copies are lying somewhere in Dehradun, give a clear picture of what all was entrusted by the Muslims and thus in turn belong to the Waqf
“What is that guideline now? Simply, be good to your fellow human beings. Dont do injustice. Do your bit to make the world a better place. ”
One does not require any religion to follow the above. In fact citizens of the most of the western countries are like the above. It has to be noted that when it comes to charity white people are right at top. They pour money to Africa. Philiantrophy of people like Bill Gates is well known. When Tsunami struck it was white people who donated millions of $.
We muslims can’t even Zakat to non muslims. Zakat is counted only when the recepient is a muslim. Isn’t that injustice.
Military burned the huge human bodies into the ash just for count down to show limited peoples in there Jama Hafza and Lal Masjid during operation there were big fire blow up but they converted 80% human bodies into ash this is called fitna now Pakistan community is under siege by little dajjal.
Mr. Indian, stop posting under different nicks. Karachi & Tambi & Mr. Indian are actually different nicks used by the same person.
Get over it, I beg of you. Find someplace else to ‘debate’.
Thanks to you alone, this post is now the most popular post all across the Metroblogging network for the past 7 to 9 odd days. Your support is appreciated and my name is Anthony Hopkins.
Peace and God bless.
One good thing coming out of this debate was that even Mr. Indian finally agreed (although unintentionally i suppose) that “smart” people can understand the real meaning and beauty of verses of Quran…
This is what Mr. Indian wrote in his second last post.
“You are smart to take the context, it seems many are not…”
the context i have been talking about is that of logic and reason, and happens to advocate peace, justice, charity and good deeds…
and the “many” according to mr. indian’s own mathmatics are just around 1% of the people.
So Mr. Indian: i hope you will not dis-own your own words now.
Quran itself invites you to think, apply your mind, not blindly follow what others say (in their blogs and letter to the editors, mr. indian). Agreed some people have different interpretation of things… but then some people have different interpretation of everything. There have always been nay sayers in every community. This is called life.
and when mr. karachi / indian says, “It has to be noted that when it comes to charity white people are right at top”… i say fine, thats very good. I salute all the people, whether white, black or brown who do good deeds and help others. Because this is exactly what my religion teaches. In fact most of the virtues of justice, charity, peace and human liberty that are found in the western world today are in accordance with what islam has been teaching for thousands of years. So good for the west that thay have adapted the right way of life… And yes, the deeds of some white people (remember Enron executives) does not make me think that all white people are bad… Same logic can be applied to rest of the world.
Peace and God bless.
Mr Faraz,
My postings are being blocked. I don’t know how I can reply to you.
Ok looks the block is removed as seen by the previous message.
The 1% is that of those who can be a physical danger to non-muslims. It does not mean that the other 99% are good citizens. I think this much is pretty much self-explanatory to a non biased observer.
The very fact that not one muslim country ever issued a fatwa to Bin Laden or AlQaeda shows that
the mainstream islam does not think ALQaeda is doing anything wrong. The first and the only time a fatwa was issued was in 2004/5. Now compare this to the frequent fatwa issues to the likes of Salman Rushdie or Ayan Hirsi Ali. Shows the priorities of mainstream muslims.
Mainstream muslims or good muslims as per your delusions will shout at their topmost voice if France bans headscarf – but will never protest if nations like Saudi Arabia or Iran makes it mandatory for all women to wear burqa.
THe world is watching Mr. Faraz. They are watching how muslims do nothing to clear their own house, and rather blame everyone else for their own problems. I don’t you will realize what I am saying.
“here’s a piece of advice, mr i-know-it-all indian, try to go out and get
laid. your social isolation and sexual frustration is reflected in all
useless words.
”
Imran – Indian society is sexually not as repressive as pakistan or any islamic society.
Sometime back there was a newsitem in BBC about
the searches for the word sex in google.
Guess which country tops.
http://www.google.com/trends?q=sex&ctab=1&geo=all&date=all
You can do research on words like “cow sex, snake sex, goat sex, dog sex” and pakisan is #1 in all.
“In fact most of the virtues of justice, charity, peace and human liberty that are found in the western world today are in accordance with what islam has been teaching for thousands of years. So good for the west that thay have adapted the right way of life… And yes, the deeds of some white people (remember Enron executives) does not make me think that all white people are bad… Same logic can be applied to rest of the world.
”
Nice spin of words Mr. Faraz. Islamic concept of charity starts and ends with muslims. Even on that count, oil rich countries have an abysmal record in helping fellow muslim countries. The charity of Saudi Arabis is non-existant to countries struck by natural disastors or are poor like Sudan. Their concept of charity means opening up mosques all over the world and preach their version of wahabism. You as a pakistani should know it better since Pakistan is now paying for Saudi funded madrassas in pakistan.
And please show me a muslim philiantrophist like Bill Gates or Goerge Sorass. Actually Bill Gates has stole the thunders from others.
Action speaks louders than words. In charity christian whites are notches above muslims or even hindus (if that makes you happy).
Your own country is a begging bowl for Uncle Sam.
All those aids given by US is charity couched in different word. And it is disgusting to see a comman man in pakistan hating US.
“In fact most of the virtues of justice, charity, peace and human liberty that are found in the western world today are in accordance with what islam has been teaching for thousands of years.”
except that not one islamic country (and there are 57 muslim countries in OIC) practise the above. So what do you want me to believe. Your corny version of Quran or the actions of islamic countries.
It is reported that almost no islamic country is democratic. You see muslims believe in divine law (Sharia). Democracy is rule of people. How can rule of people rule over rule of God. Ergo – Islam is fundamentally incompatible with democracy. QED.
The treatment of non muslims in islamic country is well documented. Again it has its roots in Quran in what is called dhimmitude, or treatment of non-muslims. It has to be mentioned that Quran mandates that every muslims has a duty to convert non-muslims to muslim. In Indonesia Buddhist school girls are beheaded by muslims (if you want I can send the link of graphic photos).
The treatment of women in islamic countries is also well documented. Asma Jehangir will tell me lot about it.
Mr. Faraz, looks like the world stopped for you to pre-internet days when muslims can tell their sugary version of Islam and most non muslims have no source to verify it. Today, folks like me, not only laugh, but also show proof of it.
Oye tum phir aa gaye :| … Skoon nahi hai zindagi main? Chillax man!
OPEE sahab,
Kuch log cricket ka shauk rakte hai, kuch log movies ka. Apun ko islam kee khauf expose karne ka shauk hai :-)
Here is a TV clip from Egypt TV. A 3.5 yr old child says that she hates jews because they are sons of apes and jews as told in Quran.
The transcript of the video is here
http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=924
At the same site, look for clip#924 and you can see the clip. You will see how a 3.5 yr old child acts like a real muslim. In fact her interviwer proudly calls her as a real muslim in making.
Now Faraz: what are those ice-cream versions of quran/islam you keep talking about.
Why don’t you make ur own blog. Have any many haunts exposed there. Have loads of comments. Have your msg through. How about mrIndia.bloggers.com. Try it, you can do it, trust me! It’ll be a huge hit, my prayers for you! :) Good Luck.
Mr. Indian: your arguments have been graduating from illogical to irrational to now purely ridiculous.
I did not want to respond now as any sane mind can see that you are not in the least bit interested in “listening”. But just for the sake of clarity, i would, again, address your statements:
You start off by saying that 1% of muslims can be a physical danger to non muslims while the remaining 99% of muslims are just not good citizens… well, one can only laugh at such an outragious generalization. Such remarks can only be attributed to racism and pure hatred against one specific community. Behold, by your defination even the president of india is a bad citizen (for he calls himself a muslim). So is 10% of population of india (muslims). You might want to write a letter to the editor in indian newspapers that these 100 million or so indians be immediately kicked out of india for they are all bad citizens…. wake up man, the days of apartheid are long gone… nobody told you that?
Then you make another blatent comment about (persumed) lack of charity in the muslim world, saying “please show me a muslim philiantrophist like Bill Gates or Goerge Sorass.”
Alright then, i’ll give you 5 names.
Muhammad Ali – by my defination, world’s most respected heavyweight boxing champion and a champion philanthropist. By your defination (which you some comments ago affixed to the american blacks who converted to islam) “a black from criminal background”
Muhammad Younus – by my defination, an economist who brought micro finance revolution for the betterment of poor not just in Bangladesh but also rest of the world. By your defination, an extremist muslim who never issued fatwa against Chengiz Khan.
Yousuf Islam (Cat stevens) – by my defination, a sensitive and caring artist who devoted his life for the betterment of the poor all around the world. By your defination, just another muslim.
Abdul Sattar Edhi – by my defination, a remarkable philanthropist whose trust now operates in all corners of Pakistan for the betterment of those who need help. By your defination… well i would like to hear your defination for this gentleman.
A.R Rahman – by my defination an artist of international repute and an eminent philanthropist. By your defination, a muslim who can either cause physical danger to you or is just a bad citizen.
I can go on with examples. Yes there are remarkable examples of charity in all corners of the world (and as i said before i salute all such people). The only point i am making is that your hate oriented comments blatently trying to prove that all muslims are bad are nothing but fool’s blurbs. I have been addressing all your stupid comments with logic and reason. I have been proving through quotations from Quran that Islam teaches purity of thought, peace on earth, charity and good deeds… charity, is one of the 5 pillars of islam.
Unfortunately this debate seems to be going nowhere as you are neither listening to my views nor making any logical remarks anymore. It should surprise you at least that i, a muslim, have been advocating “peace” for all in the world, while you (whoever you are) are continously advocating hatred and racism… I havent made one single remark against hinduism or any other religion in the world. I have been proposing peace for everyone, while the center of your entire argument is anti islamic vicious remarks (and illogical falacies)
I propose an end to this debate now. I can only pray that you are able to see beyong your hatred, and understand the true meaning of islam, a religion of peace and progress.
Peace…
OP,
What I am posting here is not irrelevant to the topic “reform of madrassas”. Your attitude was well summed by Jayjay in his email to me:-
“The level of tolerance among Muslims to hear criticism of their faith is still abysmal.
From your posts, it is clear that your have researched the subject quite thoroughly and were able to put forward the weaknesses of Islam cleverly. The points you have raised are valid. However, by using the nick like “Mr Indian” you instantly made the forum defensive about Islam, Pakistan and anything to do with Pakistanis. If your intention was to score points, I must say you did so successfully. However, if your aim was to provoke the participants into a critical thinking abut their religion, I am afraid you did not succeed. Rather, your nick and the bluntness of the message, closed their minds further.
”
Mr. Opee, you have a brain. Use it. Don’t start with assumption that islam is perfect and all critics of it are not worth responding.
If this makes you happy, there are lot of nonsense in hinduism also. Tons of it. I as a brahmin (pundit) can not accept some of the preachings we have in our books. Guess what. We reject them. No one considers me a lesser hindu.
In fact this is why India progressed. We hindus do not refuse criticism of hinduism. Some noted political figures in india have been vitriolic against injustice in hinduism. Why did south india implement 70% reservation for low caste in education and jobs. It was to correct historical injustice. I am sorry to say, muslims do not even recognise that islam has gaping holes in its idealogoies which are simply unsuited for 21st century, let alone correct it. Unless you recognise it, how will move to the next step – that is correcting it.
You might be interested that I have emailed Mr. Irfan Hussain (a noted columnist in Pak newspaper) and we have chatted via emails few times. For his safety sake I will not write
what he wrote to me since he does not post anonymously. It is amusing how columnist write in coded language so as not to antagonise muslims. One has to read between the lines to see what they are hinting, without openly sounding heretic. This means, islamic society has not changed from 11th centry.
Do you know how Persian Poet Omar Khayyam use to escape death penalty for being heretic or apostate. He would write reams of poetry praising wine and woman and at the end add one or two lines praising allah and tell others “see I was talking about god all the time”. ha ha. clever.
BTW has any muslim ever wondered how absurd is quran to ban muslims from wine in this life saying it corrupts the mind – but describes jannat full of it. How does wine became bad in this world, but a most preferred perk in Jannat.
Sounds totally illogical.
“You start off by saying that 1% of muslims can be a physical danger to non muslims while the remaining 99% of muslims are just not good citizens… well, one can only laugh at such an outragious generalization. Such remarks can only be attributed to racism and pure hatred against one specific community.”
I think I have to admit that i passed a rotten statment. I apologize. It does sound ridiculous.
But the crux of my point is, there is so much injustice in islamic society and majority of muslims do nothing about it. How did a progressive country like Malaysia silently implemented SHaria law banning muslims to convert out of islam.
How did Pakistan become so intolerant. It was not like this back in 70s. Even the cricket team of 70s was quite westernised. Now a days half of pak team look like talibaghis.
The 5 names you mention do not even come close remotely like Bill Gates, plus some of them restricted to their own country folks. Of course they may not be as rich and there is nothing wrong in doing good for your own men too, but Bill Gates and some other men are really wonderful. They do charity to people they have never met and some of the poorest too.
BTW ARRahman was a hindu till he was 20 yrs old. His one sister and her husband are still hindus.
He and his mom and second sister converted to islam. Does that tell you about indian society. An apostate hindu not only goes to live, but also be spectacular successful in music. I shudder to think what will happen to any muslim who quits islam in any islamic country, let alone be successful.
Also can you answer other questions and quotes about quran I have posted, or is that something we don’t have to talk about for obvious reason.
… so when are you making your indinegative.com.in blog. I’m anxiously waiting for it! :) I think that would be the better place to raise your little voice. So long and thanks for all the fish.
“It should surprise you at least that i, a muslim, have been advocating “peace” for all in the world, while you (whoever you are) are continously advocating hatred and racism… I havent made one single remark against hinduism or any other religion in the world. I have been proposing peace for everyone, while the center of your entire argument is anti islamic vicious remarks (and illogical falacies)
”
yes I noticed it and appreciate it. But you should spend your energy in first correcting islamic and specially pakistani society which needs your advise rather badly. We non muslims come much later.
Simple praying for peace is not enuf, specially in islamic country where violence rule the roost.
here is an open challange to Mr. Faraz.
Are you ready to debate with me in a special site only for debate so that others may not be bored with my postings . A debate which can be read online by others. It need not be interactive because we both can not take time off at the same time. I will pose questions about islam/quran and you have to refute it any time later. I see that you pick up only those statements of mine where you think you can defend. You have ignored majority of my questions and quotes about islam,
namely,
1. dhimmitude
2. hell fire for non-muslims.
3. jaziya
4. slavery
5. unlimited sex with POW
I have plenty of other to quote.
And mind you I will not restrict myself to Quran because an islamic way of life is not Quran alone, but hadith (Mohds life as told by his contemporaries) etc. Isn’t that called Sunnat
(to lead a life like Mohd). I will prove that every action of muslims today is in direct accordance with what is taught in quran and hadith.
Are you ready? I won’t be tempting you unless I am cocksure of my victory.
Mr. Indian. Thanks for the challange but i cannot accept it. Simple reason:
I am arguing that I (a muslim) believe in peace, charity and living a good life.
You are arguing that “I” (being a muslim) believe in injustice, intolerance and evil.
How can we debate on such a premise. How will you prove to “me” that “I” believe in something that i believe i don’t???
Will you quote from Quran with your own interpretation of things? well, then i will present my interpretation to you.
Will you give examples of “some” muslims who did something wrong? well, i will say that i dont follow their lifestyle. There are black sheeps in every community.
So how will we debate then?
I have already said in my last post that this debate is going nowhere and proposed an end to it. I dont have time for such useless activities specially when i know that its not going to yeild any fruits. So sorry.
However if you are really interested, you might want to pose this challange to any good muslim cleric (you can find some in india) and have a hearty debate. Thanks :)
Mr. Faraz – Don’t run away :-)
What I will be posting is direct quotes and violent acts of Mohd during his life. This has nothing to do with interpretations. Why should I interpret something which is crystal and not vague. There is nothing to interpret in the statement like
“And if any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!” -Quran 48:13″
Note: there are plenty of quotes like this which is full of violence and hatred.
Actually you are not the first person to refuse. I have seen quite a few who first defend islam and when I ask them to debate point by point they find a ruse and run away. The reason is simple and too obvious to mention.
That’s why I said Islam hates internet because net made it possible for guys like me to challange guys like you.
anyhow have a nice day.
Mr. Indian. Meri Mano, Shadi Kar lo. Tumhari aisi haalat mujh se dekhi nahi jaati. Kab tak is tarha maaray maaray phiro gay.
Mr. Indian… you can’t resist the temptation can you :)
First of all, i am not running away. I don’t want to debate because i don’t see this debate going anywhere. (read my last message again).
Still not clear? Let me give you the example right from this forum:
It started when you posted a few verses from Quran to try to prove that islam encourages voilence and aggression.
Then I gave you the context and clear meaning of first 3-4 verses you had posted and asked you to do your own research for the rest before jumping to a conclusion.
I also quoted one very simple and clear verse which specificilaly forbids muslims from hostilities and tells them that “Allah loveth not aggressors” (this verse was the one right before the first verse you had quoted)
When you quoted from some other books and blogs to prove that my interpretation is wrong, i asked you to stick to the book we are discussing i.e. Quran.
Then you agreed that “smart” people can understand the true context and meaning of Quran. But “many” cannot.
But then you immediately said that even 1% of muslims can create havoc in the world.
Then you also went on to say that remaining 99% of muslims are also bad citizens.
When i pointed out that its an outragious generalization, and in any case you are including 100 million indian muslims including your president in “bad citizens” category, you acccepted your mistake.
You also somewhere in between pointed out that there is no charity in islam and asked me to name one major muslim philnthropist.
when i told you that charity is one of the 5 basic pillars of islam and on your request gave you few examples of muslim philathropists you said, well none of these can match Bill Gates…
Then you again suddenly moved to your rhetoric that all muslims are bad and there is so much injustice in islam.
This is when i proposed we end this debate. Because “How will you prove to “me” that “I” believe in something that i believe i don’t???”
If i believe in peace, how can you tell me that no, you actually believe in aggression? I still dont want to pursue the debate because its not going to lead anywhere.
BTW. It’s interesting that you just quoted the following verse from Quran:
“And if any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!” -Quran 48:13″
The concept of heaven and hell is there in every major religion on earth. Even Hindus have the concept of Nark and Swarg. Bible also has the concept of heaven and hell. BTW, those who “reject” Allah are those who chose the life of evil, disregarding respect for their fellow human beings, and spread injustice, voilence and chaos on earth… Following the path of the devil is actually rejecting Allah. So i dont know why it comes as a surprise to you that Quran talks about Heaven and Hell?
It may, however, come as a surprise to you if you read the very next verse, coming right after the one you quoted:
Quran 48:14. To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills: but Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Oft forgiving, Most merciful… think about it! Yes, if someone continues on the path of evil, injustice, hatred… then that someone can be punished by the Lord… Dont we human have our own prisons and punishments for wrongdoers? do you reject a law simply because it talks about
“punishment” if you kill someone or spread voilence?
The point is, be a good person and be good to your fellow human beings. You dont need to debate on these things.
This should be my last post on this forum (i hope). As i said, if you want to debate, talk to some muslim cleric (i am not a cleric btw, just a humble person:) chose the right forum and debate all you want.
I can only hope that you can see the “point”.
May Allah be our saviour.
Yes I can’t resist temptation.
The concept of hell and heaven is there in every religion, but no religion except islam takes a blanket swipe at all others saying that those who don’t believe in their god will end up in hell.
They do talk about good human beings and bad.
“And if any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!” -Quran 48:13″
isn’t it clear that they are referring to non-muslims who refuse allah and mohd.
Ok so next statment is:
”
Quran 48:14. To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills: but Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
”
So it means allah owns whole world which obviously includes non-muslims too. The clear implication is that Allah is creator of non-muslims also. If Allah is creator of non-muslims also, then where is the distinction between muslims and non-muslims. Who is kaffir then? Who should pay jaziya then. Where is Jihad then. How can allah own up whole earth and yet demand that those who reject allah should be subdued and pay jajiya. here is that lovely verse of glorious quran
“9:29:
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold forbidden that which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
”
I am confused here. Allah is the landlord of whole earth and heaven but demands Jizyah tax from those who are not muslims. Why? I thought Quran just said that Allah is the creator of non-muslims also. Doesn’t sound like a just and merciful man. Sounds more like totalitarian Saddam Hussein to me. Full of zabaradasti.
“Yes, if someone continues on the path of evil, injustice, hatred… then that someone can be punished by the Lord… ”
Clever. Very clever. So the implication is that non-muslims continues on the path of evil, injustice and hatred while muslims don’t. Nice interpretation. There is no verse in 48:13 and 48:14 which talks about evil, injustice. It only
talks about those who believe in allah and his rasool (aka muslims) and those who don’t. The sugar coat was done by you to make it look good. nice try. But I am sorry you failed miserably
which is not your fault, because the book you are defending is full of such inconsitencies.
”
Dont we human have our own prisons and punishments for wrongdoers? do you reject a law simply because it talks about
“punishment” if you kill someone or spread voilence?
”
except that no man made laws say that those who are not muslims are wrong doers by default. Quran does that explicitly. If Quran meant hell fire for those who are bad, then mention that explicitly and not by saying “those who reject allah and rasool”. technically Mother Teresa rejected allah and Mohd, otherwise she would have become a muslim. Same with Steve Waugh (the australian cricketer) who started a school for orphans in Calcutta. So per Quran they will end up in hell.
And stop saying that Allah is for non-muslims too. ALlah is only for muslims and Quran is explicit about it at numerious place.
I warned you before itself. “never defend anything indefensible, you will end up ..”.
Congrats. You are well on that path.
Beta ji… clearly you are not giving any thought to what you are writing. Either this, or you like to jump to conclusions one way or the other…
On the verse, “We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire”. You should first research what “rejecting Allah” means. Non-muslims do not necessarily “reject” Allah. If they are living a pious life, doing good deeds, then they are “following” the path of Allah, just not realizing it. You reject Allah when you follow the path of Evil. which is the path of injustice, hatred, wrong deeds.
Is this point so hard for you to understand?
Same is the concept of Jihad. Jihad is not supposed to be a fight against non muslims. Its a fight against injustice, agression and hostilities. Do i have to write again the verse i quoted much earlier and many times later… okay i will “”Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Surely! Allah loveth not aggressors.”
The critical thing about learning Islam (or anything else for that matter) is to gain profound knwoledge of the subject. You cannot read a few lines from here and there, out of context, and create your own ideas around it. Specially when you are hell bent at trying to prove your hate orineted points of view. Why haven’t you quoted a single verse that talks about peace, human equality, invitates you to think and gain knowledge, proposes justice, wisdom, love…. maybe the websites you have been reading from don’t quote any of these verses. That’s why i said, read the Quran in full. Most of your queries will be addressed automatically. Provided that you read with an open mind.
So what about Mother Teresa? well, I say she led a pious life dedicated to helping others. God bless her for that. If you are trying to prove from above points that its okay for muslims to fight against someone like mother teresa (or steve waugh…as per your message), then i say that you need help.
This is what Quran says about Jihad:
(22:39) “Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them.”
So did mother teresa oppress me or someone i knew? or did steve waugh declare war against me? No? then i cannot fight against them. Simple. Straight forward rule.
How hard is it for anyone to understand?
“On the verse, “We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire”. You should first research what “rejecting Allah” means. Non-muslims do not necessarily “reject” Allah. If they are living a pious life, doing good deeds, then they are “following” the path of Allah, just not realizing it. You reject Allah when you follow the path of Evil. which is the path of injustice, hatred, wrong deeds.
”
Do you think before writing. I would encourage you to because I am enjoying the hole you have dug yourself to and are now finding it difficult to come out of it.
First look up theasurus and look for the phrase “begging the question logic”. You have conveniently assumed that non-muslims have not rejected allah. This is something you have to prove and not assume. Has any survey ever been conducted whether christians,jews and Hindus have rejct allah or not. If not please do not come up with outlanding theories. Weren’t you offended when I assumed 99% of muslims are not good citizens. I was stupid and I readily admit my mistake. I expect you too take back your statement tht non muslims have not necessarily rejected allah.
Certainly if you are going to say that in a UK mosque you will sent to hospital by clerics like Abu Izzaheden. BBC showed a program “undercover” in which he was caught preaching “christian and jews are kuffars and kuffars can never be innocent”. Also if you say this in Saudi Arabia, you will be beheaded next Friday. If non muslims have not reject allah (per your assumption) why does Saudi Arabia confiscate Bible the moment it is found in your bag in the airport.
Next:-
”
Same is the concept of Jihad. Jihad is not supposed to be a fight against non muslims. Its a fight against injustice, agression and hostilities.
”
Oh really. Who defines injustice/agression?
Muslims !!!!
History shows that islamic army came to south asia from middle east and then had their jihad.
They marched to Iran and wiped out Bahais and Persian religion. They went to Egypt and wiped out Coptic Christians to a misreable minority.
Same with north africa. Shall I show you the link how many wars Mohd and his army fought and how much was fought after he died by the first few caliphs. All were recorded in islamic history
as Jihad by your own muslim historians. And shall
i say with glee they recorded.
By that token what Alqaeda/Osama Bin Laden is doing right now is injustice to all. I don’t think you are stupid enuf to deny that. After all ALQaeda has killed far more Iraqis than American troops have. So why don’t nice muslims take it as their jihad against OBL and AlQaeda and finish them. Where is the jihad against ALQ and OBL.
Everybody knows Saddam Hussain was a cruel man who killed millions of people he did not like, like for e.g. Kurds. Why there was no Jihad against him by other muslim countries. One attack by Bush and now every muslim thinks jihad is obligatory against AMericans and Britishers. This is how young pakis justified in UK while taking part in July 7 2005 London Bombing.
When Taliban was running Afghanistan they were oppressive and cruel against many including women. Why there was no jihad against them?
And now there are Americans and Brits there to
clean their mess and make them civilized, jihad
war cry is being heard all over the world.
Time and again history has shown that jihad is only against non-muslims and muslims never fight against other muslims as part of their jihad. That does not mean muslims have not killed other muslims due to politics (1971 killing of bengalis by west pakistan, or Iran-Iraq war of 80s are good example), but they were never called Jihad.
Sorry your definition of jihad is your gulab jamun definition, not supported *ever* by any muslim action.
I however understand what you must be growing thru. I agree that it is not easy to stop believing in religion and GOD. We south asians believe a lot in super power and think every action is done by GOD. THis is true in both hinduism and islam. So when questions are asked about the validity of dogma one is following, it causes serious sleeplessness in us. See what you are doing. You are just coming up with new definitions of jihad, non-muslims to sugar coat the religion you are following. May logic and truth win your heart in due course of time.
Here are some verses from Quran which proves that your are totally wrong about Jihad and islam’s love for non-muslims, specially idolators (like
we hindus).
ANNOUNCE PAINFUL PUNISHMENT TO THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE (9:3)
O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred… (8:65)
Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve (8:55)
“Fight those who do not believe in Allah…And the Jews say Ezra is the son of God; and the Christians say Christ is the son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah’s curse be on them; how they are turned away!” (Koran 9:29-30)
When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)
O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination. (9:73)
O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (9:123)
I WILL CAST TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE. THEREFORE STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS AND STRIKE OFF EVERY FINGERTIP OF THEM. THIS IS BECAUSE THEY ACTED ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER; AND WHOEVER ACTS ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER – THEN SURELY ALLAH IS SEVERE IN REQUITING (EVIL). THIS – TASTE IT, AND (KNOW) THAT FOR THE UNBELIEVERS IS THE PUNISHMENT OF FIRE. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day – unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company – then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah’s wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be. So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy) but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; (8:12-17)
I WILL CAST TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE. THEREFORE STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS AND STRIKE OFF EVERY FINGERTIP OF THEM. THIS IS BECAUSE THEY ACTED ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER; AND WHOEVER ACTS ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER – THEN SURELY ALLAH IS SEVERE IN REQUITING (EVIL). THIS – TASTE IT, AND (KNOW) THAT FOR THE UNBELIEVERS IS THE PUNISHMENT OF FIRE. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day – unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company – then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah’s wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be. So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy) but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; (8:12-17)
The punishment of those who pit themselves against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, except those who repent before you have them in your power (5:33-34)
What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. THEY DESIRE THAT YOU SHOULD DISBELIEVE AS THEY HAVE DISBELIEVED, SO THAT YOU MIGHT BE ALL ALIKE; THEREFORE TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM FRIENDS UNTIL THEY FLY THEIR HOMES IN ALLAH’S WAY; BUT IF THEY TURN BACK, THEN SEIZE THEM AND KILL THEM WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM A FRIEND OR A HELPER. (4:89)
Allah ‘s Apostle said, ” I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ and whoever says, None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)” (Hadith 4:52:196)
Contrast that with what Jesus said:
“But I say to you, love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. Be merciful as your Father is merciful. This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” Jesus, SON of God
”
I love it when muslims in west, deeply embarrassed by the exposure of their religion, keep trotting “islam is a peaceful religion”. Oh yeah baby. We are seeing peaceful verses above.
a completely illogical message again…
that’s why i did not want to debate. Your propoganda style of writing and hate sermons cannot be taken seriously enough and debated upon.
bye.
Allaah says (which means): {Allaah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allaah loves those who deal with equity.}[60:8].
Allah Says (interpretation of meaning): {And We have sent you (O Muhammad SAW) not but as a mercy for the ‘Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists).}[21:107].
“Despair not of the mercy of Allaah.” [Quran 39:53]
Allaah also Says (what means): “Allaah is very Gracious and Kind to His slaves.” [Quran 42:19]
Allaah also Says (what means): “And He gave you of all that you asked for, and if you count the Blessings of Allaah, never will you be able to count them.” [Quran 14:34]
Islam does not force people to follow it, but according to its teachings all people are required to obey its authority who live under its rule in the Islamic State. In simple words all non-Muslims (Zimmi or others) are not allowed to invite others to follow disbelief, nor to demonstrate it or spread it, i.e. no Christian, Jewish, Buddhist or any other follower of false religion and ideology can spread his false creed in the Islamic State.
The above statement does not contradict freedom of creed which Islam guarantees, since all people work for some system that governs them, protects, their rights, property, blood, and honor and helps them achieve their interests. And only the Islamic State can give all the above. Islam is the religion of truth and mercy for people.
The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) and all Caliphs ordered Muslims to treat them (the Zimmis) kindly and keep their properties safe.
The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) said: “Anyone who harms a Zimmi, I will be his litigant and I will beat the one to be an opponent on the Day of Judgment” . [al-Suyuti in his book al-Jam'i al-Sughir with a good chain of narrators].
They can benefit from the public facilities of Muslims in all walks of life. The letter of ‘Umar Ibn ‘Abdul ‘Aziz to his governor of al-Basra is one of the glittering characteristics of the Islamic civilization: ‘Look for the Zimmis who become old and weak and who cannot earn their livelihood and devote a grant that may mend their lives’.
Allah says: {There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path………..} [2:256]
This means that a non-Muslim resident in the Islamic State can remain on his religion and Muslims are required to avoid hurting him as long as he is committed to his covenant with Muslims. But, this freedom of creed does not entitle him to invite other to his religion.
Islam is the religion of truth, and only the one whose heart is closed, whose sight and hearing are sealed will refuse to follow Islam. Thus, it becomes a duty for every Muslim to invite others to Islam and to spread its teachings in all places and at all times. Also, all obstacles, which prevent Islam from being propagated are to be destroyed so that every man on earth receives the message of Islam. Then, he/she is free to choose Islam or submit to the Muslim authority by paying the Jizya.
As for the one who embraced Islam and then disbelieved, he has committed by this act a major crime for which he should be killed unless he returns again to Islam after being a believer. Apostasy constitutes a form of frivolous play and immortality. So, an apostate becomes a vicious member in the Muslim society that should be cut off before spreading evil to others.
Here, we state that killing such a wicked member can only be ordered by the Muslim ruler, and should not be done before using all possible means to make him return to Islam, i.e. he must be shown his errors, asked to repent and to re-embrace Islam. If he does not accept, then the ruler or his agent orders that he be killed as a way of establishing the retributive punishments of Shari’ah. This means that he is considered as a killer of himself because of his refusal to return to Islam.
Furthermore, advocates of positive laws that disapprove of this punishment (killing the apostate) consider anyone who commits a breach of the political system or the constitution as a traitor i.e. one who commits treason, and thus deserves capital punishment or life imprisonment. In Islam it is natural to punish the apostate who betrays Allah, His Messenger and his religion in the same way, since no doubt his crime is much greater than just betraying the political system or breaking man-made laws.
Allah knows best.
Mr Imran,
Have you ever wondered the gross injustice of the folllowing
“As for the one who embraced Islam and then disbelieved, he has committed by this act a major crime for which he should be killed unless he returns again to Islam after being a believer. Apostasy constitutes a form of frivolous play and immortality. So, an apostate becomes a vicious member in the Muslim society that should be cut off before spreading evil to others.
”
Do you know what is most unjust here. The above applies to even those who were born muslims (which BTW are majority of muslims). One can’t choose parents. So if someone is born as muslim he/she is doomed for ever as he/she can never get out islam.
Thank you very much. Your above posting is a gem. Unintentionally you ended up exposing islam terribly as a totalitarian religion and a religion of arrogant sods who think they are the best and also contemptously dismiss others are inferior.
I am going to send this link to various fora so that others can also know why islam is beyond hope and reform. If a person like you, who claims to know 5 languages and traveled in 5 continents has such a hopeless view, then indeed nothing is possible for the reform of islam.
@ Mr. Indian
first of all i didnot claim to know 5 languages and i didnot claim to travel anywhere i think you are messing up but anyways I can understand your feelings…
but the problem is that the people don’t know what they want want to say…. even they don’t have any valid point but still i Appreciate that you are very much “sincere with islam and Muslims”
Allah’s statement: {Say: “O ‘Ibâdî (My slaves) who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of Allâh: verily Allâh forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. “And turn in repentance and in obedience with true Faith (Islâmic Monotheism) to your Lord and submit to Him (in Islâm) before the torment comes upon you, (and) then you will not be helped.} [39: 53-54].
{O you who believe! Follow not the footsteps of Shaitân (Satan). And whosoever follows the footsteps of Shaitân (Satan), then, verily he commands Al-Fahshâ’ [i.e. to commit indecency (illegal sexual intercourse, etc.)], and Al-Munkar [disbelief and polytheism (i.e. to do evil and wicked deeds; to speak or to do what is forbidden in Islâm, etc.)]. …} [24: 21]. He also Says: {Surely, Shaitân (Satan) is an enemy to you, so take (treat) him as an enemy. He only invites his Hizb (followers) that they may become the dwellers of the blazing Fire.} [35: 6].
The Prophet (Blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said:” If Allah guides even one person through you that is better for you than possessing a whole lot of red camels”[Al-Bukhari]
Umar bin Al-Khattab (), reported: Messenger of Allah () said, “Deeds are judged by their intentions, and a person will get the reward according to his intention. So whoever emigrates for Allah and His Messenger, his emigration will be for Allah and His Messenger; and whoever emigrates for worldly benefits or for a woman to marry, his emigration will be for what he has emigrated for”. [Al-Bukhari and Muslim].
so i hope this time you will come with some good intentions.
You are right Mr. Imran. That claim about 5 languages/continent was by Iblees. Sorry.
@Mr. Indian
Its ok you don’t need to feel sorry about it i was wondering.
I hope you will try to understand the true meaning of ayaat and ahadith these time….
Islam, a religion of mercy, does not permit terrorism. In the Quran, God has said:
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
The Prophet Muhammad used to prohibit soldiers from killing women and children (Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, #1744, and Saheeh Al-Bukhari, #3015)
he would advise them: {…Do not betray, do not be excessive, do not kill a newborn child.}(Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, #1731, and Al-Tirmizi, #1408.)
he also said: {Whoever has killed a person having a treaty with the Muslims shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise, though its fragrance is found for a span of forty years.}(Narrated in Saheeh Al-Bukhari, #3166, and Ibn Majah, #2686)
Muslims are even encouraged to be kind to animals and are forbidden to hurt them. He also said that a man gave a very thirsty dog a drink, so God forgave his sins for this action. The Prophet was asked, “Messenger of God, are we rewarded for kindness towards animals?” He said: {There is a reward for kindness to every living animal or human.} (Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, #2244, and Saheeh Al-Bukhari, #2466.)
The Prophet Muhammad said: {When you slaughter an animal, do so in the best way. One should sharpen his knife to reduce the suffering of the animal.} (Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, #1955, and Al-Tirmizi, #1409)
@Mr Indian
Allah revealed the Qur’an, that it might be the witness over previous scriptures and as the everlasting message
He Says: Verily, We, it is We, Who have Sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur’an) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).[15: 9]
He also Says, And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower.[6: 115].
Allah Says (interpretation of meaning): {Say: “If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur’ân, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another.”}[17: 88].
The Qur’an speaks about subtle scientific topics like embryology, astrology and oceanology, that were not discovered until many centuries after the revelation of the Qur’an, though the man with whom the Qur’an was sent was an unlettered who hailed from an illiterate nation that had no connection with those sciences nor with their records, books or researches. How then could an Ummi man like the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) produce such a comprehensive scientific record, if it had not been revealed to him from Allah, Who is All-Knower, All-Wiser?
Allah also Says: {We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their ownselves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Qur’ân) is the truth….}[41: 53].
Allah Says (interpretation of meaning), in Surah Al-Qiyaamah, while explaining and affirming His perfect Omnipotence to repeat the creation of man and resurrect him after death, {Does man (a disbeliever) think that We shall not assemble his bones? Yes, We are Able to put together in perfect order the tips of his fingers.}[75: 3-4].
(Just ponder a little bit over Allah’s particular mentioning of putting together the tips of man’s finger in this occasion, then listen to this new science of identification that was just discovered in our contemporary times, that established that the most subtle and wonderful thing in the construction of man’s body is putting together the tips of his finger. This part is so subtle that each human being has his own distinctive features that are totally different from those of others. It is this discovery that led authorities to decide many cases and incidences with fingerprints. Blessed is Allah, the Best of creators.)
(A rational person can not deny that Islam is a true religion and no one can doubt the truthfulness of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessing be upon him).
The Quran, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago, mentioned facts only recently discovered or proven by scientists. This proves without doubt that the Quran must be the literal word of God, revealed by Him to the Prophet Muhammad , and that the Quran was not authored by Muhammad or by any other human being. This also proves that Muhammad is truly a prophet sent by God. It is beyond reason that anyone fourteen hundred years ago would have known these facts discovered or proven only recently with advanced equipment and sophisticated scientific methods. Some examples follow.
The Quran on Human Embryonic Development:
In the Holy Quran, God speaks about the stages of man’s embryonic development:
We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)… 1 (Quran, 23:12-14)
Literally, the Arabic word alaqah has three meanings: (1) leech, (2) suspended thing, and (3) blood clot
2 This is how the Quran has described mountains. God has said in the Quran:
Have We not made the earth as a bed, and the mountains as pegs? (Quran, 78:6-7)
And He has set firm mountains in the earth so that it would not shake with you… (Quran, 16:15)
The Holy Quran mentioned that there is a barrier between two seas that meet and that they do not transgress. God has said:
He has set free the two seas meeting together. There is a barrier between them. They do not transgress. (Quran, 55:19-20)
God has said in the Quran:
He is the one who has set free the two kinds of water, one sweet and palatable, and the other salty and bitter. And He has made between them a barrier and a forbidding partition. (Quran, 25:53)
God has said in the Quran:
Have you not seen how God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you see the rain come out of it…. (Quran, 24:43)
….And He sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky, and He strikes with it whomever He wills, and turns it from whomever He wills. The vivid flash of its lightning nearly blinds the sight. (Quran, 24:43)
¿me extraña que este señor indio es una pequeña de 13 años en disfraz? se comporta como un copión! :-)
creo que es unas de las mariquita perdidas!
http://ia.rediff.com/news/2007/jul/16glasgow5.htm
This is a story of an educated muslim who use to write aviation software
for companies like Boeing and Airbus.
desde españa / iblees: translation?
Iblees,
today did you search on “goat sex”, like many pakistanis who have made #1 in sex related searches.
http://www.google.com/trends?q=goat+sex&ctab=1&geo=all&date=all&sort=0
“for the one who embraced Islam and then disbelieved, he has committed by this act a major crime for which he should be killed unless he returns again to Islam after being a believer. Apostasy constitutes a form of frivolous play and immortality. So, an apostate becomes a vicious member in the Muslim society that should be cut off before spreading evil to others. Here, we state that killing such a wicked member can only be ordered by the Muslim ruler, and should not be done before using all possible means to make him return to Islam, i.e. he must be shown his errors, asked to repent and to re-embrace Islam. If he does not accept, then the ruler or his agent orders that he be killed as a way of establishing the retributive punishments of Shari’ah. This means that he is considered as a killer of himself because of his refusal to return to Islam.
”
Thank you for proving that “there is no compulsion in religion” is a hogwash meant for gullible fools in the west. There is an islam term for this hogwash – Al Taquiyya (which means a muslim can lie to a non-muslims for the sake of advancement of islam). This is Quran certified and sanctioned.
Nopes… Mr. Indian is again quoting from blogs, and clearly missing what Quran has to say.
Maybe too ashamed to admit that all his remarks have been proven wrong by one poster or the other. His desperation is understandable.
On the topic of non-muslims, it is interesting to note that someone over here made the following comment:
Non-muslims do not necessarily “reject” Allah. If they are living a pious life, doing good deeds, then they are “following” the path of Allah, just not realizing it. You reject Allah when you follow the path of Evil. which is the path of injustice, hatred, wrong deeds.
The above comment was offcourse denied by mr. indian (when he was jumping like a 4 year old kid)
Here’s what i found: a few verses of Quran which actually clarify a lot of things.
Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (02:62)
And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book (i.e. muslims, christians, jews), those who believe in Allah, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah: They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account. (3:199)
Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book (i.e. muslims, christians, jews) are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right. Those who reject Faith,- neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against Allah: They will be companions of the Fire,-dwelling therein (for ever). (3:113,114,115,116)
The above verses are quite clear.
Let me also add that Allah has chosen Islam as the perfect religion for all of us. However, people from other religious backgrounds, who believe in an all powerful God, follow the right path and reject evil, would not be denied Allah’s just reward, as long as they have not willingly rejected Faith.
“On the topic of non-muslims, it is interesting to note that someone over here made the following comment:
Non-muslims do not necessarily “reject” Allah. If they are living a pious life, doing good deeds, then they are “following” the path of Allah, just not realizing it. You reject Allah when you follow the path of Evil. which is the path of injustice, hatred, wrong deeds.
The above comment was offcourse denied by mr. indian (when he was jumping like a 4 year old kid)
”
I demanded proof that non-muslims have not rejected allah.
Ok this is the so called proof:-
“Here’s what i found: a few verses of Quran which actually clarify a lot of things.
Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (02:62)
And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book (i.e. muslims, christians, jews), those who believe in Allah, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah: They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account. (3:199)
Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book (i.e. muslims, christians, jews) are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right. Those who reject Faith,- neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against Allah: They will be companions of the Fire,-dwelling therein (for ever). (3:113,114,115,116)
The above verses are quite clear.
”
LOL.
How can Quran itself be used as a proof that non-muslims have not rejected allah when Quran is supposedly told by Allah himself. Even a 2 yr old
child will use better logic.
An equivalent of this is a person accused of murdering is quoting himself to be proved as innocent.
I am still ROTFLing. The guy Mr Desi seem to have no grasp of logic. It reminds me of another paki whom I challenged “show me a proof that quran is the word of GOD”. bang. he showed me the proof in quran itself. lol. how much absurd will pakis be. How can Quran itself prove that it is a word of God and not someone’s ranting.
your argument was that “islam” believes that all non-muslims will be punished and will go to hell.
To refute this argument, we have presented you some verses from the book of islam which say that even non-muslims (as long as they dont reject Allah – explained earlier) will be rewarded for their good deeds.
now you are saying that since these verses come from the book of islam, they cannot be taken as a “proof” of what islam says……………….
how ill conceived is your logic mr. indian? for a proof of what islam believes in, do want us to quote from Shakespear?
btw. u dont need to respond. its proven again that you usually have not much to say, just some bull here and there to make a false statement. You make us laugh.
Adios
“To refute this argument, we have presented you some verses from the book of islam which say that even non-muslims (as long as they dont reject Allah – explained earlier) will be rewarded for their good deeds.
”
Oh really !!!! How do you explain this verse from quran:
“Fight those who do not believe in Allah…And the Jews say Ezra is the son of God; and the Christians say Christ is the son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah’s curse be on them; how they are turned away!” (Koran 9:29-30)
”
So in this verse Allah’s curse is on Jews and Christians while they are in this world, but I am suppose to believe that allah also promised then great after-life in jannat for their good deeds.
you have only proved that Quran is full of inconsistencies and muslims these days are working overtime to come up with kulfi coated quran to make it presentable. Unforutantely muslims also believe that the IQ of nonmuslims is same as theirs to believe this, and hence their success is limited to only dimwit folks.
If the IQ of muslims increases to something more reasonable level, they can realize that islam has more such nonsense like banning wine in this life but promising it as a perk in jannat. does that sound logical.
My goodness, the effect of brainwashing takes decades to wear down I guess.
“now you are saying that since these verses come from the book of islam, they cannot be taken as a “proof” of what islam says……………….
how ill conceived is your logic mr. indian? for a proof of what islam believes in, do want us to quote from Shakespear?
”
OK you have a valid point. But this is not what Faraz said. He wrote this:-
“Non-muslims do not necessarily “reject” Allah. ”
The clear implication is that he was speaking for non-muslims who have not rejected allah. THat’s why I asked him to show proof that non-muslims have not rejected allah.
What you showed was how Quran thinks even non muslims can be rewarded and for which I have shown verses which shows that allah will curse them just for being jew and quran.
At the end both of us are not wrong. I wish I could say the same about Quran. It is full of inconsitent crap.
Mr. Indian,
My hat is off to you. I cannot believe you are still trying to deal with those who will not see. There is no way that the followers of the pedophiliac, murdering thug Mo will ever try to understand let alone achieve that state of enlightenment. For someone to state that the proof of the truth of the Koran is that the Koran says it is so indicates a mind so brainwashed that we in the west after trying to give Muslims the benefit of the doubt lo these many years have now had it with the Religion of death and Destruction. When the terrorists of the world all adhere to one cult there can be no doubt about it’s intent.
I wish you good luck Mr. Indian. Come visit me in my corner of Canada and feel free to to be free, a concept that Muslims have no idea of.
Capt. Craig,
What is most disappointing is that no muslim of this forum (except JayJay) felt to point out the atrocities in Quran. Notice that muslims seem to reserve all right on deciding what is right or wrong. Their Quran and Allah decides who is leading a pious life and who is not. Not much explanation is given as what constitues as right or wrong. I don’t have problems if they think Allah knows better than all muslims, but why are they including non-muslims under allah’s infinite wisdom.
Islamic definition of innocent, oppression, injustice is all vague and can change anytime they please. For e.g, no-one except Kurds felt that Saddam Hussain was an oppressor.
Consider this example: A muslim king goes to a non-muslim king and asks him to convert to Islam. The non-muslim king shows him middle-finger. The muslim king can now declare himself oppressed and start Jihad. The comman phrase “tails I win, heads you lose” is quite literal in this case.
As you are a Canadian you must be knowing the case of Prof. Mohd Elamsry of Univ of Waterloo. In a TV program he came up with a justification that none of Israeles are civilians and that includes children too.
Mr. Indian,
You are most correct I applaud your diligence.Elamsry is well known and I expect he will be arrested for treason one of these days or for supporting terrorism.
I found your erudite pleadings via Isaac. You should check him out. He is well attuned to the Canadian/Islamism scene. http://isaacschrodinger.typepad.com/
Here is another good guy. http://pajamasmedia.com/xpress/michaelledeen/
It is now late and I must retire as you begin your day. My thoughts are with you. Good night.
As they say: ‘Yuck’ na shudd, dow Shudd! :S
@Mr Indian
I was not willing to show the articles but i have to do now…. no offense
Sex education creates storm
16/07/07
By Krittivas Mukherjee
Mumbai
Moves to bring sex out of the closet in largely conservative India have kicked up a morality debate between educators who say sex education will reduce HIV rates, and critics who fear it will corrupt young minds.
It’s an emotive issue pitting modernists against conservatives in a country with the world’s highest number of HIV cases at about 5.7 million, a figure that experts say may balloon to over 20 million by 2010.
Biology teacher Thelma Seqeira infuriates conservatives in India every time she tells her students about masturbation, condoms and homosexuality.
Seqeira is doing exactly what India’s federal government wants the country’s 29 states and seven federally-administered regions to do — fight the exponential spread of HIV/AIDS with information on safe sex.
“Sex education is the best way to prepare my students for adolescence and protect them from HIV/AIDS,” said Seqeira, who teaches at a private school in Maharashtra state, western India.
But the governments of Maharashtra, Gujarat and Madhya Pradesh don’t agree. They have banned sex education at public schools because they say the learning modules are too explicit, and some pictures are too graphic.
Private schools are able to continue the lessons, but many have watered them down to avoid controversy.
The southern states of Kerala and Karnataka — considered among India’s progressive states with high literacy rates — are also considering bans.
The Indian government has been unable to stop these bans even as it seeks to curb the spread of HIV. In India, about 86 percent of HIV infections occur through sexual intercourse, one key reason being that migrant workers in cities visit prostitutes and infect their wives when they return home.
Ignorance about sex is widespread in the land of the Kama Sutra, where explicit sex acts are celebrated in ancient temple architecture.
But at home, mothers hesitate to talk to daughters about something as simple as menstruation, and even the basics of the human reproductive system are taught with much embarrassment in schools.
Experts are calling for a change in prudish attitudes to help counter the spread of HIV/AIDS. They say the winds of change must first blow through the country’s schools.
“Sex education does not mean you are encouraging sex which is how it’s interpreted,” Renuka Chowdhury, India’s minister for women and child development, told Reuters last month.
“Sex education is an insurance for your child. It will protect your child.” Among the course elements that have generated much heat are discussions on homosexuality and descriptions of sex acts, including masturbation. Proponents of the ban say the sex education course — modelled on those taught in many Western countries, will make students imbibe “decadent western morality”.
They point to polls showing that an increasing number of young people — mostly India’s moneyed youngsters that live in cities — have postponed marriage, but not sex.
An India Today poll revealed one in four Indian women between 18 and 30 in 11 cities had sex before marriage. One in three said she was open to having a sexual relationship even if she was not in love.
“AIDS is spreading because of cultural decadence and sexual anarchy,” said Shajar Khan, a prominent student leader who opposes sex education at schools.
Analysts say conservative political parties, such as the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party, India’s main opposition group, are panning sex education courses at least partly to make political capital out of opposing the West.
But for parents bringing up children in rapidly modernising India, sex education may be a matter of life and death.
“The argument that if you teach about sex the children are going to run out and have sex is very unfounded,” said Roshni Behuria, a mother of two girls.
“Killing the education bit won’t reduce the propensity towards sex. But it just might end up killing safe-sex ignorant young people.”
Reuters
Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: they are the ones to attain felicity.) [Qur?an 3:104]
(Invite (all) to the way of your Rabb (i.e., Islam) with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for your Rabb knows best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.) [Qur?an 6:125]
(Who is better in speech than one who calls (men) to Allah, works righteousness, and says, ?I am one of the Muslims?) [Qur?an 41:33]
When the Jewish tribe of Bani Qurayzah was in the seizure of the Muslims, loads of dates were regularly carried to them, with the Prophet’s instructions to shelter them from the summer sun and to provide them with water to drink.
According to Islamic law, the captive belongs to the state and not to his captor. The ruler has the ultimate option, as he sees fit, of granting freedom or doing that after taking a ransom. An acceptable ransom that was quite often carried out was to teach ten Muslim children to read and write. Sometimes captives were exchanged for Muslim captives in enemy hands.
Captives were set free upon their word of honor not to fight again, and they should not be ordered by their governments to go to battle again. If they break their promise, they might be sentenced to death if they are captured again.
Umarna Ibn-Athal was set free upon his promise not to provide the enemy with food. This gentle treatment touched the man?s heart and was then embraced Islam saying to Prophet Mohammad (PBUH):
“There was a time when your face was the most hated face to me, and there comes a day when it is the most loved.?
Islamic war was one of liberation and not of compulsion. Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) and his Companions, May Allah be pleased with them, never fought to force people to accept Islam.
It is worth mentioning that when Muslims fought the Romans in Egypt, the Egyptian Copts sided with and helped Muslims against the Romans who were Christians like them. This was because Christian Egypt was suffering religious oppression by the Christian Romans to compel them to adopt their religious beliefs.
Fighting should be directed only against fighting troops and not to non- fighting persons, for Islam bans the killing of non-combatants or of a combatant who has been captured. Also Allah has forbidden Muslim from attacking wounded soldiers (unless the wounded person is still fighting).
The general rule in Islam is that one should understand this Hadith or others in the light of other texts of Sharia.
Hadith reported by Imam Muslim who said: “When the messenger (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) of Allah appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him and say: “When you meet enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and restrain yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizyah. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold your hand. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them”.
Buraydah narrated: “When the Prophet ordered a leader to lead the army, he would order him personally to fear Allaah and to treat the Muslims well…and would tell him: “If you meet your enemy, the non-Muslims, then call them to the following three things, if they accept any one of the three, accept it from them and do not ask them anything more; call them to Islam, if they accept it, then accept this from them and do not ask them more, …but if they refuse, ask them to pay tax. If they accept, then accept this from them and do not harm them, however, if they refuse, seek Allaah’s Help and fight them.” [Muslim]
so Mr Indian I hope you won’t try to mix up things for your benefits
The Prophet said to Mu’aath when he sent him to the Christians and Jews in Yemen: “You are going to a nation from the people of the Scripture, so let the first thing to which you will invite them, be the Tawhid of Allaah”
This is for Lahore MB admins: what about TOS regarding posting comments (http://www.metroblogging.com/terms.phtml)?
This thread needs to be locked or removed as it has nothing to do with original post.
Opee, I did not start the sex topic. Iblees did. I have no desire to talk about sex in pakistan even though I have plenty of links about it. When I can write reams of lines against islam/quran itself why should I be desperate like Iblees to divert attention by talking about sex or lack of it.
Mr. Indian: Read this thread again.
you and your friends are constantly using foul language, derogatory remarks and indecent comments about islam. On the other hand, none of the muslims in the forum have used a single indecent comment about any religion.
There is a stark contrast in the level of decency between the two parties.
I agree Hameed. Now that Islamists of this forum are about to be defeated by an innings and 300 runs, it is time to lock the thread and call this match a draw. Of course some smart islamists will declare themselves victorious based on the fact that they did not allow non muslims to continue further in their agenda.
Sim. Há um contraste total no nível da decência entre dois partidos.
la differenza è che si non rispetta gli altri.
Indecency!!! Foul Language !!!!. Perhaps you meant sarcasm and exposing stupidity in blind faith in quran.
Look at the personal attacks on me. It is an old trick employed by muslims when they can’t debate.
Fact is, when critically analysed, islam is indefensible and muslims have to start reinterpreting it to save their face in front of non-muslims, a job which are doing all the time and also failing all the time.
Here is one such verse:-
“. . . As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly). . .” (4:34)
Many tried to “beat” around the bush to “beat” the problem generated by the “beat” of 4:34.
Claims are made that Quran tells you to beat your wife with a folded newspaper or toothbrush. HA HA.
I mean, how much more defense a person has to be be to believe this.
@Mr Indian another issue? hmmmm anyways here is the reply because i hope “you are reading them to understand”
Allah Says (interpretation of meaning): {…….. As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) …….}[4:34]
In the above verse Allah instructs that the following three steps be taken:
A) Admonish the wife.
B) Leave her alone in bed.
C) Beat her lightly if useful.
Allaah Says (what means): {Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allaah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband’s absence what Allaah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband’s property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allaah is Ever Most High, Most Great.} [Quran 4:34].
The interpretation of this verse is that Allaah gave men the duty of protecting, helping and supporting women; this means that a man is responsible for the protection, help and support of the woman
After that, Allaah mentions the qualities of a corrupt woman, as He Says (what means): {…As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). …}.
Ill conduct in the verse means disobedience and refusal to obey her husband in what is permissible; Allaah advised the husbands to follow some steps in dealing with such disobedient wives:
1- Admonishing: Allaah Says (what means): {… admonish them…}. Admonition is to remind her of Allaah and of His Punishment and Wrath as she might repent to Allaah and fulfil her husband’s rights. However, if she continues to be disobedient, then he moves to the second step.
2- Refusing to share the bed with her: He should not share the bed with her nor have sexual intercourse with her. In other words, he turns his back to her in bed. If she continues to be disobedient, he resorts to the third and last step.
3- Beating her slightly: Beating should not break a bone, disfigure a limb or spoil a benefit, like the sight and the like. Beating is among the requirements of being a protector and maintainer of the wife. However, the husband is not permitted to beat his wife unless she is disobedient. Allaah Says (what means): {…but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance)}.
It is not possible to be certain that the punishment of a disobedient woman is less than that of a husband who hits his wife without any religious reason. Allaah Says (which means): {…But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allaah is ever Exalted and Grand.}[Quran 4:34]. Imaam Ibn Katheer said in relation to the interpretation of the above verse: ‘This is a threat to the husbands if they are unjust to their wives without any valid religious reason, as it is Allaah Who is their [wives] guardian and He will avenge those who are unjust to them.’
Prophet clarified the issue of men hitting their wives that it is not a simple matter as he said: “he men who beat their wives are not the best of you.”,
Prophet Muhammad (Blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Everyone of you is a protector and guardian (of his immediate charge and is responsible for the action of those persons who are committed to his charge). A ruler is also a steward (and is accountable for those who are put under his charge) a man is a steward in respect of his family members of his house… etc).
Mu’awiyah Ibn Haidah , who asked the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) as to what is the right of a wife upon her husband? The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) said: “Feed her whenever you feed yourself, clothe her whenever you clothe yourself; do not beat on her face; do not abuse her and do not separate yourself from her except inside the house” [ Ahmad ].
Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) Hadith reads: “Treat women kindly. Woman has been created from a rib (the rib is crooked), and the most crooked part of the rib is in the upper region. If you try to make it straight, you will break it; and if you leave it as it is, it will remain curved. So treat women kindly” [ al-Bukhari ].
It is not correct to say that the punishment for the woman in most cases is more severe than that of a man.
the Prophet said: “When a husband has two wives and does not act justly between them, he will come on the Day of Judgment with a side of his body hanging down (as a form of punishment).” [Abu Daawood]
Allaah knows best
Sameer,
any verses to quote for the reverse situation. That is when the husband is a jerk and wife needs something to teach him a lesson.
regards.
Mr Indian
I hope you will reread above posts to “understand”
The ayat doesnot allow men to beat her openly and did not give ‘em right to beat…… it is explained however there are lots of ayaat and hadith which are in the fav of the women and shows that women also own some rights if her husband is not good for example the ayat explains:
Allah the Almighty has given the wife great rights against her husband as He has given the husband great rights against his wife. Allah has called this relation: (And they (women) have rights (over their husbands) similar (to those of their husbands) over them to what is reasonable). [1:226]. Allah Says (Interpretation of meaning): (And they (women) have taken from you a firm and strong covenant) . [4:21].
Allah Says (interpretation of meaning): {O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the Mahr you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse.}[4:19].
The Prophet in the Farewell speech said: “their (wives) right upon you is that you should provide them with food and clothing in a fitting manner”. [Sahih Muslim]
The Muslim jurists stated that the wife has the right to ask for divorce if her husband does not meet her needs as regards sustenance (providing her with food, clothing and shelter).
The Majority of Muslim scholars are of the opinion that serving one’s husband is not compulsory rather it is only among the noble manners. Imam Malik , al-Shafi’e and Abu Hanifa also support this
A husband has to maintain, protect and support his family, and he is obliged to provide for his wife and children. Allaah says (which means): {Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means.}[4:34].
According to the Shari’ah (Islamic law), it is the responsibility of the husband to fulfill the basic needs of his dependants, wife and children.
The husband cannot take contraceptive measures without the permission of his wife. He is not allowed in Shariah to do so unless the wife is agreeable to it
It is the sole responsibility of the husband to provide shelter for the wife. The shelter must be totally separated, in that none of the family members of the husband should be living in the same quarters. (Hidaaya vol.1 pg.421)
However, if the wife happily accepts to live with the husband’s family members, then she has given up her own right. Nevertheless, in the above mentioned case, there was no need to make such a promise since it was your right from the beginning to be separate.
Allah Ta’ala Knows Best
what r we discussing over here… !!!
anyone who believes / claims that 1.5 billion people of the world (i.e. muslims) are all fools / have low IQ, is nothing but a fool himself… more like a village idiot, who shouldnt be given too much importance.
mr. indian started off with singaling out all muslims as bad people, then accepted his mistake and now says they are just fools….. so mr. indian here’s a food for thought for ya.
u might want to read this message several times to fully understand…
5.5 billion people of the world believe in some relegion. do you call all of them fools or just the muslims out of them?
there can be 2 possibilities:
a) if u think only the muslims are fools, then do u practically believe in all other major relegions of the world?
b) or is it that u believe in just one or none of the many relegions of the world, but think that people of other faiths (except muslims) are also “not fools”, which practically means that u believe they have made an intelligent decision in chosing their faith?
if b) is correct then u practically believe that two diffreent people can arrive at two different conclusions, yet both may have been thinking intelligently?
if a) is correct then u practically have a paradox in your mind. how can one person, i.e. you, arrive at 2 or more different conclusions, in fact opposite conclusions, at one point of time? (unless he is a fool)
if both a) and b) are incorrect then u practically believe that 5.5 billion people of the world are fool. this includes the likes of albert einstein?
so what does it make you?
if a) is correct then that makes you the biggest fool (read (a) again)
if b) is correct then u r practically agreeing that an intelligent person can arrive at a conclusion completely different from yours, and still be considered intelligent. If yes, why would u single out some of these people, i.e. muslims, as fools and rest as not-fools, unless that you are… “biased”
so mr. indian: are u a fool or biased? what do u believe in?
my suggestion: if u have some logical brain still left in you, atleast u should accept the above logic and stop calling all muslims fools, and stop passing comments on their faith. You may want to end this debate now because u know u can never win it.
“He granteth wisdom to whom He pleaseth; and he to whom wisdom is granted receiveth indeed a benefit overflowing; but none will grasp the Message but men of understanding.” 02:269 Al-Quran
“a) if u think only the muslims are fools, then do u practically believe in all other major relegions of the world?
”
actually yes. anyone who in this day and age takes religion as seriously as muslims, specially when talking about religious books written centuries ago is indeed a fool with low IQ. Be it a Hindu or Jew or Christian. It so happens that muslims “fools” outnumber “fools” from all other religions put together. We are seeing it daily here http://www.thereligionofpeace.com
best
you didnt read my message thoroughly….
a) says that you u practically “believe” in all other major relegions of the world….
is that what u r agreeing with?
but your very next statement says that be it a Hindu or Jew or Christian, they are all fools….
u seem confused…
mr. indian: read the message again and then answer…
we’r waitin’
All religions are man made concoctions. The existence of god itself is a matter of faith and not proved in any way. So imo anyone who takes his/her religious books seriously and follows that to ‘T’ (as muslims are doing), then he/she is a fool. Do ‘fools’ exist in other religions? Sure, plenty. Are they harmless or do they create trouble for others like muslims. You know better.
Also ‘fools’ from other religions do not try to defend their faith like muslims are doing in this thread, making a joke of themselves and their logic. Plus non-fools in other religions are far more than non-fools in islam, which is in line with the islamic society in general. Take a look around the world and see where islamic society stands.
And no, no quran following muslim can think critically, otherwise he would seen the garbage in it.
hope it helps.
Mere Raja sameer,
Here is an excellent site :
skeptics annotate dbib le . com /quran/women/long.html
(looks like your moderator has put a block on URLS. so remove spaces )
Each of Quran’s verses against women is mentioned here. Full of male chauvinistic comments.
Men can prove adultry with one witness, but women requires 4 witnesses.
Women get half of men in inheritance
man can ra*e as much as they want, women have to be satisfied with dild**.
Stop fooling us with your interpretaions. We see it in the muslim world daily.
Brother killing sister for so called honor. If they can’t respect their sister
well, how are we suppose to believe that they will respect their wife or girlfriend.
so mr. indian:
let’s now criticaly analyze your statement.
you are claiming that anyone who actually believes in a relegion (any relegion) is a fool.
this is what u said:
“So imo anyone who takes his/her religious books seriously and follows that to ‘T’ (as muslims are doing), then he/she is a fool”
This is what Isaac Newton said
“Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done…. I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by those who were inspired. I study the Bible daily.” (quote available at isaac newton’s page in wikipedia.)
so by your new found defination, isaac newten was a fool……
heard of mahatma gandhi? he was deeply relegious and practised his relegion all his life… by your own new found defination, was he too a fool?
this is what Gandhi once said:
“As soon as we lose the moral basis, we cease to be religious.”
Gandhi also once said this:
“The sayings of Muhammad are a treasure of wisdom, not only for Muslims but for all of mankind.” (both quotes available on gandhi’s page in wikipedia)
so mr. indian: the question is:
what are your views on these two people…. well u just said it. u think they are fools?
or do u want to present another of your twisted logic to change your claim?
i could have given u examples from muslim scholars too, but that u wouldnt have taken seriously. so let’s see what u hav to say abt gandhi and newton?
waitin for reply.
read what I wrote:
“So imo anyone who takes his/her religious books seriously and follows that to ‘T’ (as muslims are doing), then he/she is a fool.”
The keywords are “as muslims are doing”.
Did newton did ever shout jesus-o-akbar and went about killing non christians. Did he agree that anyone who leaves christianity should be killed.
Also Newton lived nearly 280 yrs ago, at a time when mankind was not enlightened as it is today. So I am willing to cut some slack to Newton.
Actually I don’t have problems with anyone believing in GOD (thought existence of GOD is a matter of faith and not a proven fact in *any* religion). It is the religious dogma which makes a man animal. many muslims are a living proof of having blind faith in religious dogma. And there are many muslims who believe in GOD without getting into dogma. I don’t have problems with them too.
About Gandhi: What makes you think he was a bright man. He was a great man in some beliefs, but by no means a bright man in every aspect. Do you know he told India should reject all industrial progress and concenetrate on khadi industry in rural areas. Good that no one took him seriously, otherwise we would have been worse than pakistan in industries. Of course he was also a maha idiot for appeasing muslims. he was so dead against partition. went about keeping fast when muslims where killed in retaliation. what an idiot. Today can anyone imagine india and pakistan as one country. Good riddance to those who went to pakistan. That miserable country is a living proof that islam can never succeed in this day and age. Their internal killing and near civil war condition is also a proof that muslims are gone case.
Mohatarma Madhuri,
Here is an article about Sweeden.
frontpagemag . co m / Articles / Printable . asp ?ID=20552
I have broken the URL, thanks to your advice.
The same in true in other scandinavian countries too. Muslims feel completely OK to r*&^ western girls because Quran says anyone not covered with burqa is a lewd woman who deserves no respect. Remember the mufti in Sydney Aus who called a woman without burqa as uncovered meat which a cat will eat. From where do you think he is saying that. From the manual of Oracle database? Nope. From Quran.
As expected, mr. indian comes up with another twisted logic. But his logic is plainly falling flat on its face:
mr. indian: your own characterization of a fool was this: “anyone who takes his/her religious books seriously and follows that to ‘T’” … whether muslims take their book seriously or not is completely immaterial to this statement. You didnt say “anyone who takes “islam” seriously and follows “quran” to the T.”
i specifically asked u about “all relegions” and i think u understood it well.
so you said “anyone” who takes “his/her relegious books” seriously.
newton took “his religious book”, i.e. bible seriously enough to “read it everyday”. and claimed to be passionate abt relegion…. so as per your defination, he was a fool.
but no, you come up with a new logic that “he lived 280 years ago”… and mankind was not enlightened 280 yrs ago………
so when exactly did mankind become suddenly enlightened? give me the date time and year so that i can cross check it from other sources.
what proof do u have that mankind was unenlightened 280 years ago?
But for a moment if we do agree that mankind was indeed not very enlightened 280 years ago, are you now saying that “everyone” who lived 280 or more years ago was unenlightened?
Then you have 2 definations of a fool/unenlightened person:
1) “anyone” who takes “his/her relegious books” seriously.
2) Anyone who lived 280 or more years ago.
hah…. so by your standards, not only 5.5 billion people living in the world today are fools, but also ALL the people who lived before your great grandfather were unenlightened.
who r u trying to kid?
Abt Gandhi. well your views should get good reviews at indian websites… i encourage u to post them there!
seriously mr. indian…. present your views about gandhi at any popular indian website and give us the link. we’d like to see the response.
the above only proves how shallow u hav become in tryin to justify your stance that u know u cannot jusity…. try as u may…
I can easily prove that Muslims are fools and only muslims are fools.
Muslims believe that there is someone called Allah who loves believers. So if Allah exist and loves believers (aka muslims), why are muslims in such a pathetic state for a long time (at least 300 yrs).
Israel kicks ass to six surrounding arab states.
Indian kicks ass to Pakistan. Pakistan never won a single war with india and neither could it claim Kashmir. India continues to choke Pakistan by forcing it to divert all its money and resources for arms.
All middle east countries are dependent on oil only, which btw is extracted out by kaafirs. Muslims are too dumb to extract their own oil. Once oil runs out, arabs can go back to eating sand.
African muslim countries: let’s not even talk about them.
The GDP of muslim countries is low. India alone has bigger GDP than them.
The education level of all muslim countries is pitiable. None of them do anything hi-tech.
What sort of Allah is he who is watching muslim ummah at their nadir while Jews/ChristiansHindus/Bhuddists are progressing.
Hence proved that Allah does not exist.
Even if he, he hates muslims for reasons mentioned above.
Muslims are fools -> Quod Erat Demonstrandum
so now u r claiming that only muslims are fools and rest of the relegious people are not fools???
thats a major shift from your earlier statement u made just a few hours ago… major major shift….
so u keep changin your statement like this everyday?
what does this make u?
yes u hav changed your nick as well this time, but we all know who u r../
also u didnt provide the link of indian website where u would be discussing your views of Gandhi…
@Mr. Indian: It was important for me to point a few things for you. First of all, this is not a forum for specific discussion on ‘any’ religion. Secondly, though you are most welcome to express your views about Islam and Muslims, you have absolutely no right to abuse, or use foul language against people of a certain belief.
We belive in Islam, and are proud Muslims, however, I, for myself will never claim to be a religious scholar. Hence, it is strongly recommended that if you are so strong in your views on Islam, study it! And if you donot bother to do so, consult or arrange a sitting with a ‘good’ Muslim scholar, I repeat, a scholar not a cleric, and put forward your questions in front of him. I’m sure you’ll find plenty of them in India. You can listen or attend any of Dr. Zakir Naik’s lectures and ask your questions.
Islam allows you to question, it openly challenges anyone in any matter. The only problem is that it’s even Muslims donot understand their religion.
The Quran is believed to be, and I would say it is, a book of wisdom. Every ‘ayat’ or verse that you have questioned was quoted out of context by you. Read the Book and donot take interpretations out of going through a single translated verse mentioned on someone’s blog.
I hope that you would show respect and try to be logical.
Thank you very much!
“mr. indian: your own characterization of a fool was this: “anyone who takes his/her religious books seriously and follows that to ‘T’” … whether muslims take their book seriously or not is completely immaterial to this statement. You didnt say “anyone who takes “islam” seriously and follows “quran” to the T.”
”
why are you omitting out the most important part of my statement. For your benefit, I am pasting it below:-
“So imo anyone who takes his/her religious books seriously and follows that to ‘T’ (as muslims are doing), then he/she is a fool.”
Look what I wrote between brackets. For me the yardstick of foolishness is muslims. And yes, if people from other religions also do it like Muslims, then they are also fools. Why should I deny that? In 1995 there was an idiotic drama in India when lakhs of fools suddenly started giving milk to lord Ganesha believing that he will drink too. If this makes you happy, IMO they were fools#1. But at least they were not killing others. Amusing yes, but killers -no.
“so when exactly did mankind become suddenly enlightened? give me the date time and year so that i can cross check it from other sources.
”
Do you think it is a coincidence that almost all scientific inventions have happened in the last 100 yrs.
Slavery was well accepted 280 yrs ago. Who knows Newton himself might have had a slave. Now how enlightened it was.
But I agree that newton was far smarter than the bunch of fools who believed a person who claimed to have met Allah while flying on a horse. A person who married some 19 times after the age of 50, including that to a child of 6 yrs.
about gandhi: the views I have is held by practically every BJP/RSS supporter. Are you saying that they are not popular. Then how do you explain BJP ruling india for about 10yrs and by the looks like will return back to power in next election. Gandhism is dead for all practical purpose. India has abandoned his khadi ideas and has adopted industralization. India is slowly realizing that muslims don’t understand any language except power and force.
Quite a few personalities have called gandhi a fool on TV. Gandhi is not above any criticism for the simple reason he goofed up quite a few times.
However credit is due to him for mobilizing indians for independence. That much is accepted.
Your mindset actually is interesting. You assume that every indian will think in the same way. Well if were muslims we would.
Why is this discussion about personal view of Mr. Indian.
Let us go back to islam, the religion of terror and destruction.
mr indian: don’t fall for this trick. There is a conspiracy to divert your attention away from islam and muslims by talking about Gandhi.
Mr. Indian aka Canadian aka Murtad aka Madhuri Dixit and I don’t know how many other aliases, please, take notice.
Your comments are no longer welcome on this post, and I can only request that you do not comment on any of my other posts as well. Apart from being abusive and non-tolerant, you keep using different aliases to support your point, whatever it is. You are actually having a conversation with your own self up in the comments, man! I presume you find this funny, and that is when I give you the benefit of the doubt.
I can not stop you as of yet.
Please, you are right. All of us Muslims are gone cases who just don’t get the coolness that comes by being someone like you. Now, go in peace, please.
@Mr.Indian aka Mr.Canadian aka Murtad: You’ve proven through your comments that you are an intolerant, immoral, abusive, and illogical kind of a human.
And, if you are not among the fools, that you’ve have been calling us, you better go through and try to follow what I said in my last comment.
Hasan,
Don’t be a coward. Mr. Indian doesn’t need to use sock puppetry.
He is not intolerant,immoral,abusive,or illogical especially illogical. He has been most logical. it is the Koran pounding puddin heads who are out to lunch.
Name one thing that indicates Mr. Indian is immoral!
Show me where Mr. Indian is abusive!
Show us oh wise one where Mr. Indian is illogical!
You sir, are the intolerant and abusive one by afixing those qualities to Mr. Indian instead of debating the issue with honesty and when you cannot logically refute his argument resort to ad hominum attacks.
Quoting the Koran is less than valid proof of any concept on the planet.
BTW Newton became a totally paranoid nutcase who
probably died of mercury poisoning due to his obsession with alchemy. Even the great can turn into fools.
I am currently listening to Ayaan Hirsi Ali ripping apart Canadian Interviewer Avi Lewis in CBC radio. Her comments about Islam is 100% true.
http://www.townhall.com/MediaPlayer/AudioPlayer.aspx?ContentGuid=6854b05d-05d6-42a0-b981-fd1b20e4a60f
You can watch the same interview here
http://www.cbc.ca/onthemap/fullpage.php?id=87
She is so articulate. She ripped him apart.
@ Madhuri Dixit
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible. com/quran/women/long.html
i think you were talking about it but am not sure whether you visited this link or not am posting a link for you you can find your answers there
http://ebrahimsaifuddin.wordpress.com/2006/10/03/refuting-verses-in-quran-insult-women/
I hope you will read them to “understand” as Mrindian is also trying to “understand islam”
Sameer,
a quick look at the islamic world clearly tells that muslims do not believe in what your link is telling.
Genital mutilation .
Honor Killing of Women.
Forced Burqa in many middle eastern country.
All this respect women I guess.
Whatever I am saying against Quran is backed up by wonderful deeds of muslims. Whatever you guys are coming up with is hardly backed up by muslims actions.
Surely so many muslims can not ‘misinterpret’ quran. What sort of book is that, which is so ambigous. Even man made laws, like income tax laws are changed frequently when a loophole is exposed.
So if you believe that words speak louder than actions, then I salute your intelligence.
Sameer,
Also can you tell me one islamic country which allows a muslim woman to marry a non-muslim man.
Is it allowed in Pakistan. I guess it is out of ‘respect’ to woman.
also if a pakistani has to apply for a passport or renew it, he/she has to sign the following
” DECLARATION IN CASE OF MUSLIM.
> I, ______________s/d/w/of ______________aged _______
> adult Muslim, resident of _______________________________________
> hereby solemnly declare that:
> a. I am a Muslim and believe in the absolute and unqualified
> finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him)
> the last of the prophets.
> b. I do not recognize any person who claims to he prophet in any
> sense of the word or of any description whatsoever after
> Muhammad (peace be upon him) or recognize such a claimant
> as prophet or a religious reformer as a Muslim.
> c. I consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Quadiani to be an impostor
> nabi and also consider his followers whether belonging to
> the Lahori or Quadiani group, to be NON-MUSLIM.
”
wonderful tolerance towards one of our sects. Can I be a muslim please
@maduri/Mrindian
Allah Says (Interpretation of meaning): ” You must call four witnesses on them”. Allah Says (Interpretation of meaning): “And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever, they indeed are the Fâsiqûn (liars, rebellious, disobedient to Allâh). The purpose is to ensure the accuracy of incident.
Quran mentions: “And when the female (infant) buried alive (as the pagan Arabs used to do) shall be questioned. For what sin she was killed? (At-Takwir 81:8-9)
Quran condemning those who practiced female infanticide: “And when the news of (the birth of) a female (child) is brought to any of them, his face becomes dark, and he is filled with inward grief! He hides himself from the people because of the evil of that whereof he has been informed. Shall he keep her with dishonor or bury her in the earth? Certainly, evil is their decision.” (An-Nahl 16:58-59)
Allah Says (interpretation of meaning): {Tell the believing men to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), … And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), …} [24: 30-31].
The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) said: “Allah has written for Adam ‘s son his share of Zina which he commits inevitably. The Zina of the eyes is the sight (looking at an alien woman)” [Reported by Imams al-Bukhari and Muslim ].
@ MrIndia and as your new question is concerned…eventhough i “couldnot understand” what are you trying to ask specially your last line…but still i hope for the best and wish to head some good things from you this time
Allah says (Interpretation of meaning): {And give not (your daughters) in marriage to AL MUSHRIKUN (Polytheists, Pagans, Idolaters, and disbelievers in oneness of Allah and in His Messenger Muhammad, till they believe in Allah}. [2:221]
A Muslim can not marry a polytheist (who worships anything other than Allah, like Idols, Stars, Sun) or an atheist woman or an apostate woman. Allah Says (Interpretation of meaning): {And do not marry Al-Mushrikât (idolatresses, etc.) till they believe (worship Allâh Alone). And indeed a slave woman who believes is better than a (free) Mushrikah (idolatress, etc.), even though she pleases you. And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al-Mushrikûn till they believe (in Allâh Alone) and verily, a believing slave is better than a (free) Mushrik (idolater, etc.), even though he pleases you. Those (Al-Mushrikûn) invite you to the Fire, but Allâh invites (you) to Paradise and Forgiveness by His Leave, and makes His Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to mankind that they may remember} . [2:221]
ALLAH Knows Best
@Mr.Indian: Contrary to your view on Islam, this religion has given women rights that were never reserved for them ever before.
As an answer to one of your earlier arguments accusing Islam of discriminating against women when giving share of inheritance, please note that Islam allocates, as a mandatory condition, respective share of inheritance for a woman as a ‘daughter’, as a ‘sister’, as a ‘wife’ and as a ‘mother’. Now, which welfare system or any other religion in the world guarantees women such fianancial security??
@Mr.Indian:
Is it allowed in Pakistan.
Yes, it is. Islam allows you to marry righteous and pious ‘People of the Book’ that includes all those who believe in God and follows any of His Holy Books.
if a pakistani has to apply for a passport or renew it, he/she has to sign the following
This condition is only for Muslims. I pity your common sense. There are more than 5 million non-muslims living in Pakistan and they have an equal right of obtaining a Passport without leaving their belief or faith.
” DECLARATION IN CASE OF MUSLIM.
@Capt. Craig: Picking one topic (in this case guess-what religion) and googling the hell out of it, randomly picking points and interpret them as per one own comprehension, that is what is called Abuse. If you read the thread from the start, it is mr. indian who referred koran as a piece of junk and vomited out his inner fears and insecurities on this thread, now will you be kind and look up the meaning of Tolerance in dictionary.
@anyone else who think mr. indian is logical: why there’s no concrete reference to any of the world’s neutral history researchers? don’t think that you folks have even read any single thing in history, mentioning karen armstrong will be just waste of time.
@mr. indian: now you’re showing the signs of short attention span, switching topics like crazy, instead of appreciating the answers or questions, you just google one more thing and paste it here. nothing more to say for you, google again and paste more stuff.
@to rest: can i at least know, why we are feeding the troll? as iqbal said: “mard-e-naadan pe kalaam pe naram-o-nazuk be-asar”.
logical or illogical: all this thread has become illogical as both the parties are using koran and interpreting it as they “think”. more like a parasite relation between the troll and the posters, arguing on what has no importance at all.
i don’t believe in any man made concept, including religion, applied to humans, so save your thoughts, and your words. don’t assume that i belong to one side or the other.
Please people, IBLEES (some nick, no!?!) is right. Go on, there are other things being discussed over the network. Take part in that, something rather more constructive.
Stop replying to Capt Craig aka Indian whtever. You just become party to it.
Live and let live,
God bless
Iblees.
“@anyone else who think mr. indian is logical: why there’s no concrete reference to any of the world’s neutral history researchers? don’t think that you folks have even read any single thing in history, mentioning karen armstrong will be just waste of time.
”
Ever heard of Will Durant. He wrote the book
the “Story of Civilzation”, considered one of the most history book. Snippet from it.
[[ BEGIN PASTE ]]
…the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown by barbarians invading from without and multiplying from within. the massacres perpetrated by Muslims in India are unparalleled in history, bigger than the holocaust of the Jews by the Nazis; or the massacre of the Armenians by the Turks; more extensive even than the slaughter of the South American native populations by the invading Spanish and Portuguese.”
[[ END PASTE ]]
What do they say, “those who forget history are …”
Karen Armstrong. For one Karen Armostrong, there are Ibn Warraq (Pakistani muslim), Robert Spencer, Dr. Ali Sina.
”
Yes, it is. Islam allows you to marry righteous and pious ‘People of the Book’ that includes all those who believe in God and follows any of His Holy Books.
”
Now you started lying. This is your Paki web site
Jamaat-e-islami answering it.
[[ BEGIN PASTE ]]
http://www.jamaat.org/qa/marriage.html
Question:
Are Muslim men allowed to marry non-Muslim women?
When you marry female people of the book and they turn out not practicing their own deen or even do not believe, what do you do. Given the fact that the fatwa classify them as Kafirs. Is there a problem of inconsistency there with the Quran which allows such marriage. Shouldn’t the Quran take precedence here. The intent is to bring them to Islam. If after so many years one is convinced they will not believe what then do you do.
Cheri Powers, Lahore
Answer:
Assalam-o-Alaikum and thank you for contacting JI dear Cheri Powers,
Islam allows a Muslim male to marry a lady, either Christian or Jews – she should not be open polytheist. She is not obliged to convert to Islam for the sake of marriage. She will enjoy all the rights that a Muslim wife avails – proper willful contract, dower, right of nafaqa (sustenance) from husband, right of inheritance (if she gets widowed), and right of separation (khula’) if ever she so wants. And, the Qur’an ordains that wife – a Muslim or Christian – is equal partner to the marriage contract.
However, a Muslim lady can neither be married nor remain married to a non-Muslim, including one belonging to the “People of Book”. If some Muslim sister has indulged in this, she should approach the husband and try her best that he also converts to Islam. Meanwhile she will NOT act as his wife and stay divorced. If after lapse of some time, the husband embraces Islam, they can however, unite again without fresh marriage, as such instances are reported in the “Seerah” and the decisions given was by the Prophet (SWS) himself. In case he doesn’t embrace Islam, divorce is inevitable.
[[ END PASTE ]]
“This condition is only for Muslims. I pity your common sense. There are more than 5 million non-muslims living in Pakistan and they have an equal right of obtaining a Passport without leaving their belief or faith.
”
what a horrible logic. So you feel it is completely for every muslim to declare his hatred for Qaidanis, which has nothing to do with getting a passport. Can you, for your allah sake, give one valid reason on why that declarion is essential for passport.
My dear pakis,
Pakistan is all set to become another Afghanistan.
Insha Allah.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=20077\18\story_18-7-2007_pg7_4
Apnee chita mein kudh jalo.
@Mrindian
(My dear pakis,Pakistan is all set to become another Afghanistan. Insha Allah.
Apnee chita mein kudh jalo.)
Thank you for your “sincere wishes”…as far as your last post is concered it shows kah you don’t want to say any single word against Islam now…I appreciate that
Regards
just in case, if somebody is still reading this thread, quoting Will Durant work require non religious contexts as it is inclined more toward geographic history. Comparison of conquest of india is more personal thoughts as other researchers find islamic empire more glorious than spanish south america, for example.
Anybody wondering about Ibn Warraq (and Co.), this author is heavily named and shamed in literary circles, heavily criticized by historians and theologians alike, Dr. Fred Donner for example, and what could be more shameful then to be denied by the reference you quote, Ibn Warraq used Dr. Herbert Berg studies as various basis and Herbert accused him of being inconsistent and polemical.
Same goes for Robert Spencer, basically playing the terrorism card, what a shame, again the literary circles have critical views of him, even non muslim scholars like Dinesh D’Souza holds critical view against him. Most of those so-called “bestseller authors” just use extra spices to bag extra cash.
Oh great. So Mr. Iblees has concluded that Dinesh D’Souza and Karen Armstrong have better claims to be a muslim scholar than Robert Spencer. What next. Prince Charles as an authority on islam?
Check his books here.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/103-4071642-6943059?initialSearch=1&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Robert+Spencer
They are well researched book explaining how islamic terrorism has its roots in islam.
I can however understand why you hate him.
It is amazing that how folks like Mr. Iblees assume that non-muslims will simply swallow their marketing hype “islam is a religon of peace and tolerance” where as history and contemporary acts show to the contrary.
How about asking muslims to first allow:
1. any muslim to leave islam peacefully to a religion of his/her choice or even aethism.
A country like Malaysia where muslims are only
60% has this draconian law.
2. allow muslim woman to marry non-muslim man.
3. Treat even muslim minorities with respect.
Ahemdiyas in pakistan, even Shias in pakistan,
or similar minorities in other countries like Ismailies.
This is the first step they have to do to clear their house.
Please note that all of the above are muslims themselves and yet they find persecuted by other muslims because they are not ‘true’ muslims.
As this thread is totally waste of time, so how about…
Destroy Cthulhu
Accept Lord Xenu
Validate Angel Moroni’s Golden Plates
Still bored…?
Give pluto back planet status
Disclose Roswell document
Some new “well researched books” written by mr. indian – based on his claims from this thread:
The truth about isaac newton – a “totally paranoid nutcase”
me and my google.com (a love story)
Conclusion beyond doubt – how a small news story in today’s local newspaper influenced my mind
“unenlightenment 280 years ago” and other short stories
“i know what pakistanis did last summer. i searched the google.”
Dear Pakis,
Start giving non-sequitur responses and start personal attacks. Start calling others as Islamaphobic.
This is the only way we Pakis can avoid answering any embarrassing questions about Islam and Muslims. We are born muslims and it is our duty to protect its image and honor at any cost.
Pakistan Zindabad.
Lesson to learn here: what’s worse than a loser is to act like a loser, for example, changing nick and posting dummy texts.
May be the next tabloid story he’ll reference is “how i always failed in getting attention”.
I start to think lord xenu story has more valid points than all the thoughts this thread has been plagued with.
oh my my:
ok. “some embarrasing questions” to mr. indian:
didnt u call isaac newton a “totally paranoid nutcase” some posts ago?
didnt u post a small news story from today’s newspaper and “concluded beyond doubt” that pakistan will be the next afganistan?
didnt u say that the entire world was less enlightened 280 years ago than it is now?
oh baby, dont u love google.com?
Mere Azeez humwatano,
Maasha allah,kaafi acha kaam kar rahe hain aap.
Bas yehi karte raho. Mein aakpo yakeen dilata hoon kee aap logo ko jannat mein jagah milegi aur 72 hooriah aap ke saath aish karenge.
Khuda hafeez.
@mr. indian: r u too ashamed to answer my questions???
well… that’s understandable.
i am confused, is mr. pakistan and mr. pakistani the same?
how about i just post a useless comment ’cause i have nothing else to do, no wait, lets google first and gather some random propaganda!!! (see the sarcasm dripping….)
:)
Dr Israr Ahmed is a true muslim. In one of his religious discourses he called for killing of all Quadiyanis (Ahmediyaas) saying that they are murtads. The video is in youtube.
There is another video of him where he said that in an islamic country, non muslims will always be second class citizens. After seeing those two episodes, one has to really thank Jinnah from bottom of the heart for creating pakistan. Can anyone imagine living with them?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israr_Ahmed
Agar baat nikal hi chuki hai .. le-haza zara door talak jaye, tow koi harj nahi.. So how about some tongue twisters :)
Betty Botter had some butter,
“But,” she said, “this butter’s bitter.
If I bake this bitter butter,
it would make my batter bitter.
But a bit of better butter–
that would make my batter better.”
So she bought a bit of butter,
better than her bitter butter,
and she baked it in her batter,
and the batter was not bitter.
So ’twas better Betty Botter
bought a bit of better butter.
And this one is specially for you Mr.Indian…
चाँदूके चाचाने चाँदूकी चाचीको चाँदीचौकमें चाँदीकी चम्मचसे चटनी चटाए।
Lol.. yea yea, I-googled-it! :)
In case anyone’s still wondering – it was:
(chāndū ke chāchā ne chāndūkī chāchī ko chāndnī chauk main chāndī kī chamchee say chatnī chatāee.)
Chandu’s uncle asked Chandu’s aunt to taste a chutney (a pickle) with the help of a silver spoon at Chandni-chowk (= a shopping street in Delhi).
@Mr.Indian: Brother, I’ve never taken any of your questions as offence, only just they way you put forward them with unreliable references, foul remarks and the use of offensive language.
Debate is not bad, only if both the parties keep decorum.
In fact, Islam challenges everyone and encourages questioning.
perfect reply opee.
Next, find the other identity of Dr. Who.
or… Dr. Dre, i think he is a believer too. ;-)
@Mr.Indian: Though, I’m not a scholar, still I will try to counter some of your arguments with the best of my limited knowledge.
Starting from the latest; your three questions. I’ll focus on the last two first:
2. Why not allow muslim woman to marry non-muslim man
“Muslim males are allowed to marry non-Muslim females but Muslim females are only allowed to marry Muslim males. This is often cited as discrimination and one of the symbols of oppression of Muslim females.
The reason for allowing men and not women is in order to protect the woman’s religion. If a Muslim man requested his Christian wife not to bring alcohol or pork in his house and that she not wear mini-skirts or kiss his friends, she could comply without affecting her religious teachings. However, if a Christian husband requested his Muslim wife to purchase alcohol and serve him pork, to wear miniskirts and kiss his friends since it is his custom to kiss the wives of his friends. It is natural for a wife to try to please her husband. In the case of the Muslim wife, that could lead to the destruction of her faith.”
Link: http://www.zawaj.com/articles/between.html
Citing from the same source that you pointed (http://www.jamaat.org/qa/marriage.html):
“If a true Christian or Jewish lady (married to a Muslim man) sticks to her deen, she is not be compelled to convert to Islam.”
Does not that show how tolerant and flexible Islam is??
“In fact, Islam challenges everyone and encourages questioning.
”
I have a serious question. Do you take non-muslims to be fools. If Islam challanges everyone and encourages questioning, by now it must have reformed and muslims won’t be talking about implementing sharia law in this day and age. Why do you think islam is the only religion yet to reform to modern times.
Can we close comments on this item?
3. Treat even muslim minorities with respect. Ahemdiyas in pakistan, even Shias in pakistan,or similar minorities in other countries like Ismailies.
Islam does not have any ‘Muslim minorities’ in it. In fact it doesn’t even allow to make or follow any sects under religion.
”
It is a fact that Muslims today, are divided amongst themselves. The tragedy is that such divisions are not endorsed by Islam at all. Islam believes in fostering unity amongst its followers.
The Glorious Qur’ân says: “And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allaah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves” [Al-Qur'ân 3:103]
Which is the rope of Allaah that is being referred to in this verse? It is the Glorious Qur’ân. The Glorious Qur’ân is the rope of Allah which all Muslims should hold fast together. There is double emphasis in this verse. Besides saying ‘hold fast all together’ it also says, ‘be not divided’.
The Glorious Qur’ân says: “As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: Their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.” [Al-Qur'ân 6:159]
In this verse Allah (swt) says that one should disassociate oneself from those who divide their religion and break it up into sects.
”
Visit the source for more explanation:
Q13 http://www.allaahuakbar.net/misconceptions/index.htm
The condition of agreeing to the mentioned conditions in Passport Application is ‘only’ for Muslims and no Muslim can be a Muslim without believing in those statements. The conditions donot say ‘slay or murder Qadianis’, it simply verifies your religion.
I hope this will help.
Hasan,
You forgot to paste next lines
“Yes, Qur’an gets precedence over all other opinions.
Now what does Quran say (taken from the same site you quoted)
“MUSLIM WOMAN AND NON-MUSLIM MAN
….And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al-Mushrikun until they believe in Allah alone and verily a believing slave is better than a (free) Mushrik, even though he pleases you….[2:221] (Al-Mushrikun=Pagans, idolators, polytheist and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and in His messanger Prophet Muhammad SAW) – [6]
Islam considers the husband to be the head of the family and therefore requires that a Muslimah cannot marry a non-Muslim because she will be under the authority of a non-muslim husband. He may prevent her from carrying out her religious obligations by either pressuring her or physically abusing her. But it is not the sole reason for imposing the restriction. The situation is considered very damaging for the woman to practise Islam afterwards and even worse for the kids in such marriages. There are NO conditions mentioned under which a Muslim woman IS allowed to get married or remain married to a non-Muslim husband after she has accepted Islam. Therefore, even if she has freedom to practise Islam after marriage, she is NOT allowed to enter into an inter-faith marriage.
remember my muft ka mashwara “never defend anything indefensible, you will …”
Hasan Bhaijan, What exactly you were thinking when you start feeding the troll?
@Hassan – How could you?! :)
Ah shuks.. Now I’ll have to find another Hindi Tongue twister. Huq ha..
*Opee Googling the hell out of it again*
“The condition of agreeing to the mentioned conditions in Passport Application is ‘only’ for Muslims and no Muslim can be a Muslim without believing in those statements. The conditions donot say ‘slay or murder Qadianis’, it simply verifies your religion.
I hope this will help.
”
In other words Islam has no tolerance for anyone who thinks otherwise when it comes to Ghulam Mirza. It has become a condition of citizenship of pakistan to declare Qadainis as non-muslims. After all not agreeing to those three conditions means no passport. Where is the glorious tolerance you just spoke about.
I am wondering whether stupidity is a requirement to be a muslim or the effect of being a muslim.
@Mr.Indian:
It has become a condition of citizenship of pakistan to declare Qadainis as non-muslims.
How could you be so dumb!
I clearly mentioned that this condition is ‘ONLY FOR MUSLIMS’ which, in simple, means that if you’re a Muslim, you have to sign this form and submit it with your Passport Application; and, if you happen to be a Christian or a Sikh, you don’t have to.
Being a non-Muslim, you can have a Pakistani Passport, that too without having to sign the document in discussion.
And, for what you have quoted as a comment, it is clear Why Muslim women are not allowed to marry non-Muslims. Because, even if today your husband gives you freedom, his different belief can become a problem for his Muslim wife if he starts imposing his will on her.
May Allah show you the guided path! Amen
“Mera Bharat Mahan, bhooka nanga Hindustan, 100 mein se 99 baiman, phir bhi Mera Bharat Mahan!”
Apart from discussion…yaar ye kis movie ka tha or kisney ye gr8 lines kahin thin ….bas ye batao…i don’t rem…thx han !!! and no offence of course – Its how easy to say it :) .
chill out tata b’bye
~Aap ki Maasi
LOL, ROFL – Now indian will be come defensive all of a sudden and start saying, na na I admit I admit, at least I admit :P – and all that crap – with extra topping. Why don’t you – with all due respect – buzz offf!!! :D – Puleeez!!
Go google in your bathtub! :P
@Maasi – it was by some Hindustan’s Nana (Patekar). I’ve just googled to find it out. :) – Let me check wikipedia too. brb.
“I clearly mentioned that this condition is ‘ONLY FOR MUSLIMS’ which, in simple, means that if you’re a Muslim, you have to sign this form and submit it with your Passport Application; and, if you happen to be a Christian or a Sikh, you don’t have to.
”
That’s what I meant when I asked originally. Even for muslims this question is horrible.
what sort of condition is this which forces every muslim (which means 98% of paki population) to declare Ghulam Mirza as a imposter nabi. Let us say a muslim does not want to agree to this condition. Does that mean he has to forgo his citizenship as he is not considered a muslim. And then you say deen mein ko jabar nahi hai. Yeh jabar nahi hai to kya hai.
I mailed that to Mr. Irfan Husssain , the columnist who writes for dawn newspaper. He readily agreed that it is an atrocious requirement.
also it is nice that you have admited that you are not a quran scholar. Good. That means all your gulab jamun version of quran is fit for garbage can as your opinion is worthless. The real islam, by muslim Phd scholars can he heard/seen here
http://www.real-islam.org/audio/
Watch/hear all, but specially the video
“a confession of defeat”.
There is a famour Pakistani professor in Univ of Illinois at Urbana Champaign. His name is Prof Gul Agha. You can do a google of him. Please ask him his opinion on islam. Once I was flaming a paki in soc.culture.pakistan and he read that. He emailed me “to waste even one minute on islam/quran is like wasting your entire life”. LOL. that was a nice spoof on quran statement “to kill an innocent man is like killing an entire mankind”. (which btw is half truth, because the next sentence clarifies it)
@Indian: Man, you tell me, you are wasting your time here or not?
There is a famour Indian professor in Univ of Illinois at Urbana Champaign. His name is Prof Shri Nath Ram Charand Charan Papalli Ayenger. You can do a google of him. Please ask him his opinion on Indians. Once I was flaming an indian in soc.culture.india and he read that:
I heard him sing ‘Gandhi, tere desh mein’
“Gali-gali mein phailaa danga; Gandhi, tere desh mein
har koi bhooka, har koi nanga; Gandhi tere desh mein
…. har daftar mein chor, o bhaiyya; ye dil maange more…
jaisa-taisa, aisa-vaisa; paisa-paisa-paisa-paisa…
ye dil maange more, bhaiyya, ye dil maange more.”
No Nini,
I am not wasting since my time since I am exposing Quran/Islam and looks like I am doing a great job.
regards.
@HanooMan The MonKey: Man, you tell me, you are wasting your time here or not?
No Mimi,
I am not wasting since my time since I am exposing Hindu/Hindustani and looks like I am doing a great job googling.
regards.
people, can’t you see interesting facts have come to light, notice the post-embarrassment come back of the dyslexic loser; even has problems differentiating between his thoughts and oxymoronic words (i could’ve omitted “oxy”, love the pun here!), talking about facts-vs-myths and right-vs-wrong will be too advanced topics for the feeble minded attention seeker.
An example to keep in mind when playing a game, some win and celebrate, other lose and accept it, but then there are some, that we have seen here, the ones unable to play, but eager to set the rules for it; refuse to leave the ground with bleating stubbornness, and the only thing they lose in the end is dignity by successfully “exposing” their own selves.
oh, but what the hell, so what we were talking about… err, Dr. Strangelove? or Dr. Kevorkian… (take a hint!)
Inside a mullah’s mind
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/205521.html
To be a muslim means …..
http://www.muslimlinkpaper.com/mybo2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1088&Itemid=1&PHPSESSID=b63d3a2820c10b10e5fafcf3f814cc41
Just one? Dyslexia effecting your googling? There are 110 million websites and you could find only one? pathetic, isn’t it?
what happened to the questions, no wait, objections?
British muslims show their loyalty
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=469285&in_page_id=1770
Dr. Ali Sina (the most respected anti islam critic) who is an ex-muslim himself. At his fantastic website http://www.faithfreedom.org he says about his experience in Pakistan
“We considered America and Europe but my father, acting upon the counsel of a
few of his religious friends thought another Islamic country would be better
for a 16 year old boy. We were told that the West is too lax in morality,
that people are pervert, that the beaches are full of nudes, that they drink
and have licentious lifestyles and all that could represent a danger to a
young man. So I was sent to Pakistan instead. Pakistan being a religious
country was safe. People were religious and therefore moral. A friend of the
family told us that Pakistan is just like England, except that it is
cheaper.
This, of course, proved to be untrue. I found Pakistanis were as immoral and
corrupt as Iranians. Yes they were very religious. Yes they did not eat pork
and I saw no one consuming alcohol in public, but I noticed they had dirty
minds, they lied, they were hypocrites, and they were cruel to the women and
above all filled with hatred of the Indians. I did not find them better than
Iranians in any ways. They were religious but not moral or ethical.
In college I did not take Urdu and instead I took Pakistani Culture to
complete my A level FSc (Fellow of Science). I learned the reason for
Pakistan’s partition from India and for the first time heard about Muhammad
Ali Jinah, the man Pakistanis called Qaid-e A’zam, the great leader. He was
presented as an intelligent man, the Father of the Nation, while Gandhi was
spoken of in a derogatory way. Even then, I could not but to side with
Gandhi and condemn Jinnah as an arrogant and ambitious man who was the
culprit for breaking up a country and causing millions of deaths. You can
say I always had a mind of my own and was a maverick in my thinking. No
matter what I was taught, I always came to my own conclusion and did not
believed what I was told.
I did not see the difference of religion enough reason to break up a
country. The very word Pakistan seemed to be an insult to the Indians. They
called themselves pak (clean) to distinguish themselves from the Indians who
were najis (unclean). Ironically I never saw a people dirtier than the
Pakistanis both physically and mentally. It was disappointing to see another
Islamic nation in such an intellectual and moral bankruptcy. In my
discussions with my friends I failed to convince anyone of the “real Islam”.
I condemned their bigotry and fanaticism while they disapproved of me for my
un-Islamic views.
“
alert: nick changing troll flood ahead.
— reminder of general public —
people, can’t you see, interesting facts have come to light, notice the post-embarrassment come back of the dyslexic loser; even has problems differentiating between his thoughts and oxymoronic words (i could’ve omitted “oxy”, love the pun here!), talking about facts-vs-myths and right-vs-wrong will be too advanced topics for the feeble minded attention seeker.
An example to keep in mind when playing a game, some win and celebrate, other lose and accept it, but then there are some, that we have seen here, the ones unable to play, but eager to set the rules for it; refuse to leave the ground with bleating stubbornness, and the only thing they lose in the end is dignity by successfully “exposing” their own selves.
oh, but what the hell, so what we were talking about… err, Dr. Strangelove? or Dr. Kevorkian… (take a hint!)
oh my my: mr. indian is still googling… haw desperate!!! man, take a shower atleast… its been five days :)
and btw… u still havent answered any of my questions……. still ashamed of yourself???
fer yer ref, i am re-posting my questions (since u hav already proven to carry a very short attention span)
didnt u call isaac newton a “totally paranoid nutcase” some posts ago??
didnt u post a small news story from today’s (now yesterday’s) newspaper and “concluded beyond doubt” that pakistan will be the next afganistan??
didnt u say that the entire world was less enlightened 280 years ago than it is now?
oh baby, dont u love google.com?
Inside a hindu’s mind – Myth of Hindu Tolerance
http://www.saxakali.com/southasia/hindu.htm
@Mr.Indian: You need me. Come son. Don’t be shy.
guys…. give mr. indian some time to think… i mean google…. his search engine has slowed down, and he is hearing the voice of CEO of google in his head…. give him time to think (google) people. i m sure he will come up with a new website soon that proves beyond doubt that isaac newton was a totally paranoid nutcase…
@TT: :-)
An observation i would like to share while my travels across the globe, there are always people like mr. indian, ali sina, ibn warraq, etc the living-in-denial community; they’re against religion, homeland, fellow countrymen, and in some exceptional scenarios against their own families; what make them interesting, by observing striking similar patterns, is that, they don’t want to be labelled as Desi’s and can’t become westerns. They can’t get rid of their own roots so they go against it.
Swinging desperately between two, they try not to lose any single chance to blame the country or the religion, and think whatever happened to them is because of someone else fault. For this lost attitude, i call them “The Lost Generation”; ever since i floated this term, its readily accepted in western social circles and the reason for the popularity is simple, they are the lost generation, lost between time and space of their own roots and western values that are considered too open for their feeble mind; hence most of the westerns are pissed by those morons.
In west, especially in european side, people are close to their culture and roots and they don’t like the idea of somebody saying foul things about their own religion or culture. This is one of the points that “the lost generation” do not understand, and they end up getting totally isolated by the western communities even living in their countries.
— Here’s my new foot note —
people, can’t you see, interesting facts have come to light, notice the post-embarrassment come back of the dyslexic loser; even has problems differentiating between his thoughts and oxymoronic words (i could’ve omitted “oxy”, love the pun here!), talking about facts-vs-myths and right-vs-wrong will be too advanced topics for the feeble minded attention seeker.
An example to keep in mind when playing a game, some win and celebrate, other lose and accept it, but then there are some, that we have seen here, the ones unable to play, but eager to set the rules for it; refuse to leave the ground with bleating stubbornness, and the only thing they lose in the end is dignity by successfully “exposing” their own selves.
oh, but what the hell, so what we were talking about… err, Dr. Strangelove? or Dr. Kevorkian… (take a hint!)
@iblees: How true :)
Don’t they have any mental asylums in India?? Someone needs the treatment immediately…
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/downloads/probing-islam.pdf
Oye Pak Zindabad gadhe, if you have an iota of brain, you will realize that Javed Ghamidi lost the debate badly. Ali Sina was far too erudite for him.
A tree should be judged by its fruits or a school by its students. Why should Islam be held to different criteria?
Blah blah blah….
Speaking of blahs blahs … and blahs..
Iblees – I googled –
I tried much, but sorry, couldn’t help. So I googled.. And found another tongue twister for our beloved. :)
Here goes:
समझ समझ के समझ को समझो
समझ समझना भी एक समझ है
समझ समझ कॆ जो ना समझे
मेरी समझ मे वो ना समझ है
ha ha and ha!
“Blah blah blah….”
are you reading namaaz by chance. Sounds exactly like it.
BTW what do you guys do when the guy in front of you reading namaaz farts right on your nose. Do you run away from namaaz or just get used to it. You know the frequent butt lifting can cause lot of pressure in stomach for the release of ‘gas’.
.. and with my last comment to this blog. I announce that we have reached the 200th in number! :) Thanks to our beloved, without his help, we couldn’t. *sniff*
I have tears in my eyes ~ *Blowing nose*
Thank you. We will not forget this favour of yours. You were a great laugh in this dull world.
Once again – in pure indian accent – wida touuzand apalojeez – I would say:
Tank eww – Kum agayn. lol
That’s more like it… just like an offspring of ali sina, coming to his roots, like pigs rolling in their own filth.
but i wonder why changing the nick…. little piggy is scared.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19842888/from/RS.1/
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20070719/wl_csm/orallybomb_1
running out of fuel? i wonder why no body give a flying eff.
look at the nick, folks, trying to get ideas for his nick from his in-breeding ancestors; the poor guy is even pathetic to be a blasphemer, no class what so ever.
now, i suggest an experiment, all take a break, except for the ali sina’s offspring of course, and come back in few days, just to count how many blah links are here.
it will be fun. :-)
— my standard foot note for dyslexic losers —
people, can’t you see, interesting facts have come to light, notice the post-embarrassment come back of the dyslexic loser; even has problems differentiating between his thoughts and oxymoronic words (i could’ve omitted “oxy”, love the pun here!), talking about facts-vs-myths and right-vs-wrong will be too advanced topics for the feeble minded attention seeker.
An example to keep in mind when playing a game, some win and celebrate, other lose and accept it, but then there are some, that we have seen here, the ones unable to play, but eager to set the rules for it; refuse to leave the ground with bleating stubbornness, and the only thing they lose in the end is dignity by successfully “exposing” their own selves.
Story of a pakistani.
–
I was having breakfast in my serene world, unaware that zero-hour had arrived. I went to my morning math class, came back to my dorm afterwards, and checked online for the latest news and upon scanning caught three words.
“World. Trade. Crashes.”
“Hunh, the stock markets are crashing?” was my confused thought.
“Center,” was the fourth unbelievable word that hit me.
I clicked the link and there on the page was a picture of one of the twin towers crumbling.
“No.”
I ran out to the main living room and turned on the TV. The Twin Towers were no more.
Students started to stream in the living room. They all watched the horror without uttering a word. I left them and went to my room. That morbid picture on the screen, in which so many innocent lives were instantly extinguished, produced a feeling of emptiness.
I checked other websites and came upon a most wretched spectacle. Palestinians were celebrating and passing around sweets. Their euphoric performance made my stomach churn. How demented is a society when it reacts with glee to thousands of innocents perishing? I simply couldn’t comprehend the depths of their depravity.
As the day passed, my grief morphed into anger. Anger for those who had carried out, supported, and financed the heinous acts, for those who had rejoiced at the news of the atrocity, and for those who were planning more assaults on the West. For too long the Islamists had thought of Americans as cowards. For too long the Americans had been at the receiving end of their attacks. For too long the US had done little in response. For too long the majority of the American public had not acknowledged their evil enemies.
At long last, at tremendous personal cost in blood and treasure, the US was awake and furious.
The Fourth World War had begun.
The immediate months after 9/11 were quite jarring. An economics professor of ours told us to not believe “the official” version of events. He hinted at some dark conspiracy without illuminating the situation. Sometime later, on a different topic, he told us to not pre-judge communist economies. I stopped listening to his Leftist palaver after that. Then there were the idiotic doom and gloom scenarios. For example, thousands of American troops dying, millions of Afghanis starving to death, and the war raging on for years and years. The Ayatollah of the Left, Noam Chomsky, was always present to crown the US as the leading terrorist state in the world. Yet, there was a clear-cut choice. America plus the Allies were up against 7th century woman-beating, gay-hating, liberty-crushing Islamists. After the incredible victory of the American army in less than two months, the credibility of the Left was in a quagmire. Still, the overwhelming majority of Leftists kept on spewing venom at the Americans.
Leftists were not alone. One day, I walked into the living room where two guys were watching some news channel. The program was about the merciless lampooning of Osama in every late night show. One of the guys was very agitated.
“I understand why he makes fun of Osama all the time. It’s because he’s a rotten stinking Jew. But I don’t get why Leno jokes about Osama so much?”
The other guy nodded. I was speechless. I don’t know to whom he charmingly referred to as “a rotten stinking Jew,” and I was touched to hear him defend a mass-murdering psychopath. A few months later, I would find the same guy laughing heartily at the President Bush pretzel incident. It seemed that no amount of ridicule of the Chimp-in-Chief was too much.
I found out later still that the guy was a member of the Muslim Student Association.
After finishing the exams, it was time for the December trip to Saudi Arabia. As usual, on the flight to Saudi Arabia, the passengers are provided Saudi customs cards. So, I started to fill one out.”First Name. Second Name. Third Name. Family Name.” I filled out the entries.”Nationality.” Pakistani.
Further along, check boxes for “Single” and “Married.” Single.
“Religion.” I stopped.
“Religion.” I had mindlessly filled out those forms on countless occasions.
“Religion.” Why was it so hard to write the same thing I had written so many times before?
“Religion.” Finally, I wrote down the usual answer. Islam.
The days that followed were unreal.
“The planes were remote controlled by the Americans. That’s why it was easy for them to be slammed into the buildings.”
“They want to start a war to go after Afghanistan.”
“How could Osama pull off 9/11? He is thousands of kilometers away in Afghanistan.”
“The US is the superpower, isn’t it? So, how could supposedly 19 Arabs cause such havoc to such a super country?”
“The US wants to subjugate Muslims.”
That’s just what I heard from my family. The situation was not much different in the newspapers and magazines. Every time the media mentioned Osama in a story, the “who is blamed for 9/11 by Washington” was not far behind.
I was reading through a Pakistani magazine where in the letters section was this gem. “The attacks on 9/11, which we all know were caused by Mossad,…” It was mind-numbing. The Muslim world simply couldn’t agree as to who was behind the 9/11 attacks when the plain truth was staring them in the face.
Though, what they could all agree on was a sense of uninhibited joy. Whether it was Americans, Israelis or the tooth fairy that was behind 9/11, they didn’t mind the auspicious atrocity.
My dad told us of a blue Saudi in his office.
“He was distressed because he wanted the twin towers to topple sideways for more death and carnage.”
I felt sick. The US, just a decade before, had sent half a million of her finest to save the Saudis from imminent danger. On 9/11, the citadel of the US was attacked, thousands of innocents were murdered, and the ingrate citizens of Arabia were delighted.
It seemed that with a few exceptions the entire Muslim world had gone stark raving mad. Instead of opposing the evil regime of Afghanistan, they openly supported it. There were women in Pakistan who publicly supported the Taliban. That made about as much sense as blacks marching in favor of the KKK. It felt like being in a lunatic asylum where the US was attacking Muslims and the Taliban were gentle and sinless creatures.Many Muslims had supported Saddam against the US, more than a decade before 9/11. Why? Because he’s a Muslim! Again, the same horrid logic was being used to defend the most wretched and wanted man in the world.
The umma basically manufacture reasons to hate the West. There’s a conspiracy theory to back up each and every grievance for loathing the Free World. The infidels, in the minds of most Muslims, are out to destroy their communities. However, their very Islamist rules cripple a functioning society. Their one-and-only solutionTM to every perceived problem is more Quran, more Islam, more aping of Muhammad, more 7th century barbarism – in one word, Islamism. That was, and is, by far the loudest force in the Muslim world.Very few, very precious few, look at the US, and the West in general, and say, “How about emulating those successful folks?” The rest are shocked and ask, “You want the Great Satan and his minions to be our role models!?” That is enough to shut up most liberals in the Muslim world.
I had wondered about many questions that had gone unanswered. After coming to North America, my life was on auto-pilot and I hadn’t given much thought to those questions. Then, 9/11 acted as a catalyst. The Muslim mask of peace and tolerance was removed and the hideous truth was in the open. No amount of evidence could convince the umma of America’s innocence.
I left Saudi Arabia for Canada in January. I filled out the Saudi customs card as same as before. The trip was long and arduous.
I walked in my dorm room and firmly shut the door. I was a Muslim no more.
@mr.indian/zzz: *yawning*. wake me up before you go.
@iblees, I think this mr.indian’s done. A prozac or two will do. Twice a day, especially before going to bed! :)
listen to this talk radio host ripping apart ‘moderate’ muslims.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/017445.php#comments
click on the youtube link. Listen to his rant against muslim for not getting enraged when muslims kill innocent people all over the world, but shout at their loudest voice when cartoons appear or Salman Rushdie gets knigthood.
Making corny movies like “khua key liye” is not enough. Stand up and say no to terrorism by muslims.
The talk radio host says that “if we had enuf of you, we will wipe you from the face of this earth”. And US will do it if another 9/11 happens.
Already some senators are threatening that mecca will be nuked if next 9/11 happens.
Please support this good human being.
http://www.geocities.com/fpmuhammad/favor.htm
*throws a bunch of rotten tomatoes at Mr.NameSwitcher*
*hands over a basket each to Opee & Iblees*
:P
@Hassan: Yaar kion tamatar Kharaab kar rahay ho aur kis pay zaya kar rahay ho :D
@Mr.NameSwitcher: One more for u!
नंदु के नाना ने नंदु की नानी को नंद नगर मे नागिन दिखाई
Nandoo kay Nana Nay Nandoo ki Nani ko Nand Nagri may Nagan Dikhayi. :)
Jap aap logo ne islam/quran pe saree zindagi zaya kiya, to phir yeh nacheez kya hai.
Wake up and smell the chai. Dump Islam. Only then muslims countries have any chance. Become an aethist. Become a humanist or whatever. But just don’t associate yourself with that 7th century garbage called Islam. Tabhee tarakee hogee aap logon kee. Warna sadate rahoge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ
Jap aap logo ne islam/quran pe saree zindagi zaya kiya, to phir yeh nacheez kya hai.
Wake up and smell the chai. Dump Islam. Only then muslim countries have any chance. Become an aethist. Become a humanist or whatever. But just don’t associate yourself with that 7th century garbage called Islam. Tabhee tarakee hogee aap logon kee. Warna sadate rahoge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ
@UknoWho:
Peetal ke pateelay main papeeta peela peela. :P
पीतल के पतीले मे पपीता पीला पीला
Pappu ke Pappa nay Pappu kay Pillay ko Paani Pilaya.:P
Hurray! I’m also good at it… 8)
who is who?
Raag neela raag neela raag neela raag neela
neela neela neela
raaaag
LOL – Ladies and Gentlemen, please welcome Momeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeekh!!! :D
lolllllllzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Hurray!
*unloads a truck-load of rotten eggs; hands bucket-fulls to Pretty Simple and Momekh*
Just in case someone needs it badly, again ;)
*targets Mr.Junk-head*
Bahadur, Jawano!
FIRE!!
M bringing Chainsaw! :P grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Off all the civilizations of the world the indians have been the most servile and pathetic.For the last 5 thousand years they have been rulled first by the arian hordes then the muslims and the brits.They have achieved some success in IT and thier bragging has hit the roof.Allah ganjay ko nakhan na dey.Islam is going through a period of transformation and introspection like the west of past centuries. If you look at the history you will find such periods to be very ugly.Islamic civilization has its moments of glory in arts and culture as well as in military domain which is second to none.Remember every civilization has its moments of infamy too.Although borned in a muslim faimly i do not accept the divine aspects of the religion.
Off all the civilizations of the world the indians have been the most servile and pathetic.For the last 5 thousand years they have been rulled first by the arian hordes then the muslims and the brits.They have achieved some success in IT and thier bragging has hit the roof.Allah ganjay ko nakhan na dey.Islam is going through a period of transformation and introspection like the west of past centuries. If you look at the history you will find such periods to be very ugly.Islamic civilization has its moments of glory in arts and culture as well as in military domain which is second to none.Remember every civilization has its moments of infamy too.Although borned in a muslim faimly i do not accept the divine aspects of the religion.
@TREETOP: End discrimination,.. Hate everyone.
sniff sniff. kuch jalne kee boo aa rahee hai.
pakis are the most pitiable people in the world. Cut off fromm their roots, living in a false country, these guys think they are true muslims. Fact is, arabs and persians consider them as inferior and it is abundantly made clear to them when these pitiable creatures go for haj.
Ever since the country was born they are living on a begging bowl. Mammu Sam gives them zakaat which they call as aid.
Pakis try to connect to their roots by watching bollywood movies.
A country which has not produced one thing on its own. Not even nuts and bolts (this mentioned in their own newspaper). Their is no manufacturing industry as everything is imported.
India has around 15% of global auto parts market. India’s share is increasing in apparel. Their own newspaper tell that ever since quota was lifted on apparel, share of India and CHina has increased while Pakistan has declined.
Thanks for taking the advice. Hate everything. Love yourself.
Popcorns anyone?
The show is boring Mr. Indian. End the misery!
http://www.dawn.com/2005/11/22/op.htm
If Pakistan wants to emulate india, dump ISLAM first.
@Indian:Love yourself, hate everything and everyone.
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy ( a paki writer) in his book, Islam and Science exposes the myth that the Muslims of middle and early ages had made contributions to the development of science.
“@Indian:Love yourself, hate everything and everyone.”
hey, I am not a muslim.
Here is Mr. Razi Azmi, one of the best writers in the world talking about the islam/muslim problem.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006%5C06%5C15%5Cstory_15-6-2006_pg3_5
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_4-8-2005_pg3_2
Here is Mr Azmi
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=20071\18\story_18-1-2007_pg3_2 talking about showing off of religion at every public place. Must read.
We in india say that “pakis eat shit/piss/fart/drink religion”. It seems there is a competition everyday as who invokes the name of non existant allah most number of of times.
@,indian i hope you dont stink as much as your thought.
“hey, I am not a muslim.”
lolzz
nini are you a moderater or an instigator.
moderator
@treetop,
yeah I agree, shit smells bad. but hey that’s what islam is.
Don’t get angry. think about it. Your life revolves around a religion which tells you to hate things you have never seen, shaitan, yahudi (jews) and tells you to love dearly things you
have never seen, which is non existant allah.
Just take a look around muslim ummah and see their pitiable condition. has islam got nothing to do with it?
No wonder every muslim gets some consolation talking about its so called glorious past. Who will draw solace from history. Only those whose have no present or future. And then they have a ready made explantion for everything. “because we are not good muslims”, or “because we were good muslims at that time”. How stupid can they be.
That comment about eat/shit is 100% true.
@INDIAN your mama is cow and your papa is monkey.YOU ARE LEFT BEHIND IN EVOLUTION.
Bang!
*Hits guitar on the wall*
@TreeTop:@INDIAN your mama is cow and your papa is monkey.YOU ARE LEFT BEHIND IN EVOLUTION.
How many times I have to yell here that I am not a muslim.
Come to the west. They will tell you that they think of Muslims. (backward, regressive, barbaric folks).
Read this interview with your cousin:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20070721/wl_time/atalkwithasuicidebomber;_ylt=Akp1vSI.qgkE_lrt
@Mr.Indian: We didn’t know you are TreeTop’s cousin. 8-P
8-P your are stretching your imaginations alittle to far.
Who says shaitan does not exist , shaitan kahein kay :)
Shaitan: thats exactly what i was expecting from you..thank you …So INDIAN Do you need anymore proof that shaitan exists?
Oh that means Allah exists too? I am human being just as Mr. Indian is, so keeping in mind individual differences and caliber, whatever package attracts me more, i will join that party ;)
Btw what package Shaitaan is offering? …better than Warid? :D
Correct me if i am wrong.Muslims have kicked the Indian ass for a thousand years and white ass for about 8 hundred years.Well we can take a little beating.
NINI you are elevating the status of MR INDIAN.
I did not know he even have a status.
since when pakis started associating themselves with arabs, turkish and central asian invaders. You pakis should never forget what you are. You were those hindus who converted to islam due to one of the two ‘S’: Sword or Semen. Sword is self-explanatory. I don’t want to explain the other ‘S’. All other hindus who refused to convert are the ones who still are hindus. No hindu ever converted willingly. Proof: In so called 1000 yrs of islamic rule, the % of low caste in india never changed. Shouldn’t they have converted to ‘superior’ islam en masse, escaping from the caste system. What prevented them during the ‘great’ islamic rule. Plus many islamic surnames are all upper caste hindu surnames like Bajwa, Patel etc.
Islam is the only religion where people hate their own roots, or are made to hate it, in order to prove themselve as street cred muslim.
I can however understand why pakis take pride while reading about heroic deeds of invaders. Since they have nothing to take pride in, live in ‘glorious’ history of those who **** their mothers at sometime.
Damnit, you Hindus hate what not. See the list. You guys need a life.
http://www.hinduunity.org/hitlist.html
Show me a single site by a muslim where you find such a huge list where they fingerpoint and say we hate him and him and him and him and him and every single person in the world! :S Bullocks.
MR INDIAN you need to see a vet may be he can help you out.
How about following websites to prove glorious islam and its automated bots followers:
www . faithfreedom .org
www . jihadwatch .org
www . dhimmiwatch .org
www . thereligionofpeace .com
www . muslimsout .org
www . littlegreenfootballs .com
half of the sites are banned in many islam countries for fear of exposure.
Plus there are any more which I am not aware of. I challange any other religion to have so many websites dedicated to exposing them. Masha-allah.
Muslims are really peace loving, where peace is defined as wordld converting to islam.
============================
Teacher, I want to go London next month. I want bomb, big bomb in
London, again. I want make jihad!”
“What?” I exclaimed. Another student raised both hands and shouted:
“Me too! Me too!”
Other students applauded those who had just articulated what many of
them were thinking…”
That’s how Ed Husain records his experience in the Saudi Arabian
school where he had taken up a teaching assignment after embracing
radical Islam. It was the day after the 7/7 suicide bombings in London
that killed 52 commuters and Ed Husain, his faith in radical Islam by
then dwindling rapidly after experiencing life in Saudi Arabia, was
hoping to hear his students denounce the senseless killings. Instead,
he heard a ringing endorsement of jihad and senseless slaughter in the
name of Islam.
Disillusioned, Ed Husain returned to London and penned his revealing
account in The Islamist – Why I joined radical Islam in Britain, what
I saw inside and why I left. Debunking the lib-left intelligentsia’s
explanation that deprivation, frustration and alienation among
immigrant Muslims in Britain are responsible for the surge in jihadi
fervour, Ed Husain writes:
“Many Muslims enjoyed a better lifestyle in non-Muslim Britain than
they did in Muslim Saudi Arabia… All my talk of ummah seemed so
juvenile now. It was only in the comfort of Britain that Islamists
could come out with such radical utopian slogans as one government,
one ever expanding country, for one Muslim nation. The racist reality
of the Arab psyche would never accept black and white people as
equal… I was appalled by the imposition of Wahhabism in the public
realm, something I had implicitly sought as an Islamist…”
So, what does an Islamist seek? The reams of rubbish churned out by
bogus activists and windbag columnists desperately seeking to
rationalise crimes committed in the name of Islam, ranging from the
ethnic cleansing of the Kashmir Valley to the Mumbai bombings, from
the attack on Parliament House in New Delhi to the destruction of the
World Trade Center twin towers in New York, from the horrific assault
on human dignity by the Taliban in Afghanistan to the nauseating
anti-Semitism of the regime in Iran, cannot explain either the core
idea of Islamism or what motivates Islamists. For that, we have to go
through the teachings of Hasan al-Banna, the original Islamist and
progenitor of the Muslim Brotherhood, but for whom and which perhaps
we would have been spared the terror that stalks us today.
Hasan al-Banna’s articulation of Islamism in the 1930s, distilled from
complex theological interpretations of Islam, was at once simple
enough for even illiterate Muslims to understand and sinister in its
implications when seen in the context of what we are witnessing today:
“The Quran is our Constitution. Jihad is our way. Martyrdom is our
desire.” Imagined grievances and manufactured rage came decades later,
as faux justification for adopting this three-sentence injunction that
erases the line separating the spiritual from the temporal and giving
Islam a political dimension in the modern world, thus expanding the
theatre of conflict beyond the sterile sands of Arabia.
Hasan al-Banna died a nasty death when he was murdered in 1949,
apparently in retaliation of the assassination of Egypt’s then Prime
Minister, Mahmud Fahmi Naqrashi, but the seed he had planted in his
lifetime was to grow into a giant poison tree, watered and nourished
by Sayyid Qutub (whose tract, Ma’alim fi-l-Tariq was interpreted as
treasonous, fetching him the death sentence in 1966) which over the
years has spread its roots and branches, first across Arabia and then
to Muslim majority countries; so potent is that tree’s life force, its
seeds, carried by the blistering wind that blows from the Mashreq,
have now begun to sprout in countries as disparate as Denmark and
India, Turkey and Malaysia, changing demographic profiles and
unsettling societies.
The world chose to ignore subsequent events and, like those who
clamour for a gentler, accommodative approach to Islamism today by
pushing for compromise over conflict, ‘enlightened’ scholars and
public affairs commentators rationalised Anwar Sadat’s assassination
by Islamists on October 6, 1981. Even Egypt erred in setting free
scores of conspirators, including a certain Dr Ayman al-Zawahiri.
Similarly, the ‘Islamic Revolution’ in Iran with its blood-soaked
consequences was hailed as a “people’s victory” over Shah Reza
Pehalvi’s dictatorial regime. For Europe, which now is fast turning
into Eurabia, it was business as usual – Iran’s oil swamped out
rational analyses. If any country had the farsight to sense the danger
signals, it was, ironically so, Egypt which continues to remain wary
of Iran, not least because of its export of rabid Islamism. That
Tehran has riled Cairo by naming a street after Sadat’s assassin,
Khalid Islambouli, is only of partial significance.
It was in the immediate aftermath of the Soviet invasion of
Afghanistan that Islamism acquired a new dimension and a vicious edge
when it was coupled with Wahaabism, Saudi Arabia’s severely austere
version of Sunni Islam. Arab nationalism, which was unencumbered by
Islamism till then, became an expression of faith in radical Islamism.
In what passes for Palestinian territories, the intifada was born and
while the popularity of Yasser Arafat’s largely secular (which
explained his hugely corrupt ways) PLO began to decline, Hamas, led by
its paraplegic spiritual leader, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, began its
murderous march which has culminated with Gaza Strip being declared
‘Hamastan’. Yassin was killed by the Israelis for inspiring young
Palestinians to blow themsleves up in buses, restaurants and markets,
but that has not stalled Hamas or weakened it as an Islamist
organisation.
In Lebanon, the Hizbullah is now facing competition from Fatah-al
Islam in Palestinian refugee camps. In Britain, Hizb ut-Tahrir is
seducing young Muslims like Ed Husain with its acid message of
intolerance and bigotry. In India, we have the Jamaat-e-Islami and the
Tablighi Jamaat. The Deobandis are not to be scoffed at.
To neutralise the three-sentence injunction of Hasan al-Banna, we need
more than a ‘War on Terror’. We need to launch an assault on the idea
that motivates terrorists. There is no scope for accommodation, nor is
there any reason to capitulate or strike a compromise.
Hello.. Mr. Indian.. I asked a question. Stop wagging your tail infront of me without a certain reason! Give me a list will you please. Just like the hugggggggge one Hindu Terrorists have here in the site I’ve just shown above.
And be quick in googling, will you please? You can wag your tail afterwards.
I have asked so many questions about islam and hatred preached in quran, which has been left unanswered. So why should I oblige.
@indian, Morakh tou kion apni shamat bula raha ha.
17 useless posts in last 3 days, very interesting, but pathetic at the same level, i thought the racist troll will post at least 50 pieces of junk; the moronic arguments of the racist troll are getting even lower than the ones in jerry springer show.
Again, what we know, the moron is even lower in comprehension than we originally thought… no, wait, he is not a moron, it will be an improvement for him he will become a moron.
here’s another prediction:
* racist troll will be flamed and tempted to post more junk after reading this. (this prediction can never go wrong!!!)
what kind of replies we’re expecting:
* moronic blah
* racist blah blah
* blah blah blah
the interesting thing is no matter how hard you screw the sadomasochist racist troll, he will be back for more, seems more like a case of Text fetish.
Islam is a race !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Same ol’ ad hominem style employed by muzzies to divert the attention.
return of racist, quicker than i thought…
the racist has shown again qualities of:
- ADD (attention seeking disorder)
see how quickly he posts back trying to get attention with lower than tabloid standard words
- dyslexia & learning disabilities
unable to comprehend his (or its?) previous words
- Living in denail (I AM NOT A RACIST attitude)
the proof is all over this thread
- Sexual frustration and social isolation
visible from selection of junk material
- Cultural orphanage
going against his own roots, lowest level of patheticness
- Moronic Intellect
Jerry Springer is better Ali Sina, but what the hell, consume scum of tabloid junk
p.s. see how quick my earlier prediction got true!
Islamists definition of racist: Anyone who points out the cruelty of islam and the horrible acts committed by muslims, in the name of religion.
Thanks to muslims, no one takes the word racism seriously anymore. In fact Robert Spencers of the world take it as a badge of honor if muslims call them racist – a sure sign of defeat of muslims.
Indian…. List? :P
Ok ok, not ‘thaaaaaaaaaat’ long but at least try. Don’t loose heart. Don’t tell me your googling paaarz have diminished.
could there be any more pathetic way of self-declared win other than see your post not the last post in the thread?
ladies and gentlemen, witness the sick mentality as the racist will reply again.
IBLEES thy name is JERRY SPRINGER.Both are interesting.
be my guest.
Sshh…Wait and see how the racist dog will return with his tail between legs.
_______________
“If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.” — Mark Twain
p.s. probably mark twain came across some ungrateful loser like the racist troll as well.
… probably on his visit to India. :)